LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
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Tone Deft
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by Tone Deft » Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:27 pm

people are confusing this issue with others and the ones making all the noise aren't helping to clear that up?
"Obsession is a great substitute for talent." - Steve Martin on learning the banjo

ze2be
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by ze2be » Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:33 pm

esp81 wrote:There's no real workaround besides not using any 3rd party plugins, which is completely ridiculous for such expensive software. Every other DAW already does this stuff properly.
It happens with some of Lives plugs to. And racks.
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sdfak1234
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:52 pm

Definite ambiguity here, I'm concerned about PDC and PDC on automation. There seems to be a response from Ableton regarding PDC for internal plugins, but nothing about automation or 3rd party improvements. It's concerning that these issues aren't addressed, even via comment.

Tone Deft
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by Tone Deft » Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:07 pm

sdfak1234 wrote:Definite ambiguity here, I'm concerned about PDC and PDC on automation. There seems to be a response from Ableton regarding PDC for internal plugins, but nothing about automation or 3rd party improvements. It's concerning that these issues aren't addressed, even via comment.
what do you need to know? when using plug-ins that introduce a time delay be careful with your automation. if you work on a project for a while and it just doesn't sound as good as it used to, look for this problem.
"Obsession is a great substitute for talent." - Steve Martin on learning the banjo

paulmaddox
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by paulmaddox » Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:09 pm

sdfak1234 wrote:Definite ambiguity here, I'm concerned about PDC and PDC on automation.
Likewise. I've learned to work around the issue - largely by bouncing stuff to audio, but it's really disappointing to hear that this doesn't seem to be fixed in 9.

I remember there being talk in the past that it was due to Live being optimised for live performance, so as not to cause lag when twiddling a knob in a performance (which is logical), but surely a switchable "Live Mode / Accurate Mode" scenario would solve this?

sdfak1234
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:39 pm

Tone Deft wrote:
sdfak1234 wrote:Definite ambiguity here, I'm concerned about PDC and PDC on automation. There seems to be a response from Ableton regarding PDC for internal plugins, but nothing about automation or 3rd party improvements. It's concerning that these issues aren't addressed, even via comment.
what do you need to know? when using plug-ins that introduce a time delay be careful with your automation. if you work on a project for a while and it just doesn't sound as good as it used to, look for this problem.
I want to know if it's been compensated or not. To me this is theoretically possible if a plugin behaves. I don't think it's a good solution to look for the problem if your sound falls off, obviously I've had to do this many times, and it's not good, largely you have to rollback over changes on top of things, it can be destructive, I'll be honest though, I have gotten much better at making sure it doesn't happen in the first place, it's just a drain on my work flow and you can miss the delays which causes a kind of paranoia whilst working and it's definitely disruptive. I've also noticed that this problem seems to have gotten worse over time, probably due to more process heavy VSTs. I also think it's one of the reasons why producers bitch about live's sound quality, because it's not immediately obvious what is happening... as others have pointed out it is weird how your songs seem to fall apart due to FX configuration, and as I said, it can be really hard putting the pieces back together, there is a chain reaction.

oddstep
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by oddstep » Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:58 pm

well at least it's been picked up now in beta testing. maybe it'll get fixed, Q1 2013 is plenty of time to get it right innit.

sdfak1234
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:04 am

oddstep wrote:well at least it's been picked up now in beta testing. maybe it'll get fixed, Q1 2013 is plenty of time to get it right innit.
I think this problem has been around for at least a few years, it's a core issue that at least some people were expecting, I think it's fair to say if it isn't in the beta, it probably isn't going to happen.

Tone Deft
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by Tone Deft » Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:15 am

they might not want to say it's working or not until it's beta tested. maybe it should be working, then they find out it's not. the bonobos will go apeshit.

maybe a list of all the Live devices' parameters with a yay or nay on which parameters are compensated for.

third party stuff would be tricky, both parties have to have their acts together.



I only use Live, here's a QUICK search for other DAWs:
Logic Express has PDC
http://documentation.apple.com/en/logic ... tasks=true

Fruity Loops seem to suggest a workaround with a 'create sub-mix to' bus
http://findremix.com/flstudio-tutorial- ... de-simple/

Pro Tools - only the HD version
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/showwiki ... ools-LE-MP

Sonar's had it all along
http://www.cakewalk.com/Products/SONAR/ ... mpensation

no time ATM to finish that list...
"Obsession is a great substitute for talent." - Steve Martin on learning the banjo

kabelton
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by kabelton » Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:46 am

This article refers to pro tools 7.4... now we have PT10 which has pdc... the exact sample compensation is shown in each track.

beatmunga
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by beatmunga » Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:42 am

Tone Deft wrote:they might not want to say it's working or not until it's beta tested. maybe it should be working, then they find out it's not. the bonobos will go apeshit.

maybe a list of all the Live devices' parameters with a yay or nay on which parameters are compensated for.

third party stuff would be tricky, both parties have to have their acts together.
Listen to Tone Deft folks, he has history on this. He's the only one who understands the situation. Hence the reference to everyone else as apes.

Anyone who brings this issue up not only does not understand, but will eventually be labelled a "bitcher" and a "whiner" if they counter his stance.

He is treading carefully so far here in the face of a huge weight of evidence that this issue may be unacceptable after all. I wonder Tone Deft - if it is sorted for Live 9, will you admit that it was a problem all along? And if it isn't, will you continue with the 'well, if Ableton don't think it's important enough to include, then there's no need for it to be there' stance?

Both are really weird and I can't work out your agenda at all.
mendeldrive wrote:NOBODY designs their own sounds... There is ZERO point in reinventing the wheel.

ze2be
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by ze2be » Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:38 am

Hes just boored at work as usual, arent you Tone ;)

Heres a list 3dot started a while ago about the latency of each of Lives plugs and devices.
I think they might have updated eq8s latency in Live 9, didnt we read about that somewhere?
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=177073
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pencilrocket
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by pencilrocket » Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:40 pm

How can DAW add delay not only to audio but also to the Automation and MIDI? It will need delay compensators for every plugin wrapper, sliders and knobs.

Are there any sequencers that do this?
Image

petit nuage
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by petit nuage » Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:55 pm

8O

thanks coocoocacha for the information...im very disappointed....but i hope it will be implemented for the live 9 official release !
ps: ive just discovered my new live 8 to suite 9 upgrading price...thanks for making my choice simpler :mrgreen:
Last edited by petit nuage on Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:43 pm, edited 8 times in total.

esp81
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by esp81 » Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:56 pm

pencilrocket wrote:How can DAW add delay not only to audio but also to the Automation and MIDI? It will need delay compensators for every plugin wrapper, sliders and knobs.

Are there any sequencers that do this?
Yes..Cubase, Pro Tools, and FL Studio do compensate automation.

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