LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
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Tone Deft
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by Tone Deft » Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:05 pm

ze2be wrote:Hes just boored at work as usual, arent you Tone ;)
yep, pretty much. one of the few topics with any meat on it these days. it's an issue, what's up with it?
Heres a list 3dot started a while ago about the latency of each of Lives plugs and devices.
I think they might have updated eq8s latency in Live 9, didnt we read about that somewhere?
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=177073
yeah, good stuff.
"Obsession is a great substitute for talent." - Steve Martin on learning the banjo

Akshara
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by Akshara » Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:59 pm

What surprises me is that at one point in this ongoing discussion, there was an impression that adding PDC for automation and tempo based effects could possibly require a code rewrite. No dev said this outright, yet is was part of the larger speculation. Maybe they just haven't gotten to this part of the "never ending list of priorities" yet, while the new code makes it possible to address one day. I hope so.

I was one of those impacted by this firsthand, learning about the issue while trying to figure out why my tracks sounded loose and out of sync, and made a genuine effort at working around it within Live for awhile; yet finally chose to switch to another DAW for tempo based effects with precise automation. I still use Live for performance, managing loops and quickly sketching out ideas though. Live is still the best for this.

For those new to the issue, here are some key moments from the discussion:

viewtopic.php?p=1263901#p1263901

viewtopic.php?p=1244011#p1244011

viewtopic.php?p=1247289#p1247289

viewtopic.php?p=1291720#p1291720

UCAudio
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by UCAudio » Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:38 pm

I switched to Live from Cubase, and I swear my tracks in Live have better timing/feel compared to stuff I did in Cubase. I wasn't doing any automation though.

CooCooCaCha
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by CooCooCaCha » Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:42 pm

Akshara wrote:What surprises me is that at one point in this ongoing discussion, there was an impression that adding PDC for automation and tempo based effects could possibly require a code rewrite. No dev said this outright, yet is was part of the larger speculation. Maybe they just haven't gotten to this part of the "never ending list of priorities" yet, while the new code makes it possible to address one day. I hope so.

I was one of those impacted by this firsthand, learning about the issue while trying to figure out why my tracks sounded loose and out of sync, and made a genuine effort at working around it within Live for awhile; yet finally chose to switch to another DAW for tempo based effects with precise automation. I still use Live for performance, managing loops and quickly sketching out ideas though. Live is still the best for this.

For those new to the issue, here are some key moments from the discussion:

viewtopic.php?p=1263901#p1263901

viewtopic.php?p=1244011#p1244011

viewtopic.php?p=1247289#p1247289

viewtopic.php?p=1291720#p1291720
That last link is very disturbing. Apparently Ableton thinks things going out of sync is fine because it sounds more analog...

That's a terrible way to look at things because we aren't necessarily talking about sound quality, we're talking about usability. In the picture I posted earlier If I wanted to change the shape of my kickdrum in VolumeShaper I'd have to change the envelope every time I add or remove a plugin before VolumeShaper.

As for automation delay, I made a very simple test in Live 9 where I used one instance of Pro-Q in high latency mode to see if it would cause automation to be delayed. Well that one instance of Pro-Q caused my automation to be delayed by A WHOLE QUARTER NOTE. Granted Pro-Q was on it's highest quality setting but the fact that one EQ plugin can shift Live's automation so much is disturbing to say the least. What happens when I'm trying to produce a track and start adding and removing plugins? Am I supposed to adjust all of my automation every time something changes?

Someone on this forum made a great suggestion. If these delays are there to help live performance then why not add a "Production" mode for those of us who just produce music in Live?

petit nuage
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by petit nuage » Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:23 pm

good idea !

agent314
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by agent314 » Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:35 pm

Sucks that it's not fixed right now in 9

On the plus side, 64-bit and session view automation were both features that would supposedly take huge amounts of re-coding and rebuilding basic functions within Live, and now both of those are in play (64-bit, mostly in play) -
so hopefully that means PDC, if the huge scope of the development was an issue, will be something they're willing to tackle in upcoming releases

Remember that 64-bit wasn't even a new version - just another .1 point on the current version.

SrdanDurden
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by SrdanDurden » Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:23 pm

CooCooCaCha wrote: Someone on this forum made a great suggestion. If these delays are there to help live performance then why not add a "Production" mode for those of us who just produce music in Live?
Excellent idea!!
I wasn't aware of this problem till now...

ze2be
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by ze2be » Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:43 pm

Id be supriced but very happy if it was introduced before version 10. I doubt it. Just look at how manny full versions it took to get session automation. However if adding an offline/cpu heavy render mode is not a huge task, then by all means go for it!
? ? ? ? ?

sdfak1234
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by sdfak1234 » Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:44 pm

Tone Deft wrote:they might not want to say it's working or not until it's beta tested. maybe it should be working, then they find out it's not. the bonobos will go apeshit.

maybe a list of all the Live devices' parameters with a yay or nay on which parameters are compensated for.

third party stuff would be tricky, both parties have to have their acts together.

I think this would be highly unprofessional, if Ableton are working on the fix they should let us know, not keep it secret just in case it doesn't work. Nobody has mentioned this fix, I think it's unlikely this has been resolved. It's kinda shocking after 3 years, I don't think Live was rewritten, it seems like the same core as before. I think Live8 may be my last Ableton version, definitely if Live9 doesn't have PDC... extremely disappointed to have invested so much time and money into this platform.. if this is all that they can come up with in 3 years, I have very low hopes... plus I'm sick of buying it just because competitors aren't doing the same stuff... I'd rather give it up than invest in a dead platform. Also think it's very bad form to get no comment on this problem.

merges
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by merges » Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:50 pm

Given how important this is, and how core to the software, it seems almost impossible that it would be added *after* a public beta.

This would be considered part of the bedrock of the software. Discovering substantial problems (new, a.k.a. not the already-known PDC issues) with timing and drift in a publicly released DAW that costs of hundreds of dollars, would be big trouble for Ableton. Same for issues of data loss, crashing, etc. So introducing a change to the bedrock between beta and release would be super sketchy.

I'd bet the farm PDC isn't fixed, based on the descriptions so far.

merges
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by merges » Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:52 pm

sdfak1234 wrote:Also think it's very bad form to get no comment on this problem.
^^^

If it were some arbitrary effect feature, then no comment would be fine. This is audio software, it's practically *all about TIME.* It'd be nice to hear something from the horse's mouth.

Tone Deft
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by Tone Deft » Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:55 pm

ze2be wrote:Id be supriced but very happy if it was introduced before version 10. I doubt it. Just look at how manny full versions it took to get session automation. However if adding an offline/cpu heavy render mode is not a huge task, then by all means go for it!
re-reading Henke's ideas on this it seems that this works like we've been suspecting it would. plug-ins report their latency and Live can adjust. it is like is now for low audio latency.


sdfak1234 wrote:if Ableton are working on the fix they should let us know, not keep it secret just in case it doesn't work.
disagree. the more they tell customers the more of a pain in the ass it becomes. when will it be fixed? why will it be fixed? it's not fixed enough. people will complain about ANYTHING you tell them, so don't tell them anything until it's done.

doesn't really matter what we think, they'll do what they want to do, just look at the ugly ass forum and web site.

extremely disappointed to have invested so much time and money into this platform.. if this is all that they can come up with in 3 years, I have very low hopes... plus I'm sick of buying it just because competitors aren't doing the same stuff... I'd rather give it up than invest in a dead platform. Also think it's very bad form to get no comment on this problem.
why in the world are you using it if it's this disappointing? sell your license. do it now while people are disappointed in Live 9. people holding out for Live 9 wanting to skip 8 will buy it. it sounds like a complete waste of money for you.
merges wrote:Given how important this is, and how core to the software, it seems almost impossible that it would be added *after* a public beta.
for dance music, knob twisters, people that use lots of effects for their sound it's important. most of my effects are static, most of my automation is just for sends. they've sold tens (hundreds?) of thousands of licenses without this and it's a known issue.
merges wrote:
sdfak1234 wrote:Also think it's very bad form to get no comment on this problem.
^^^

If it were some arbitrary effect feature, then no comment would be fine. This is audio software, it's practically *all about TIME.* It'd be nice to hear something from the horse's mouth.
there's a link to a Henke quote going into detail about this. they know about it and left it out for lower latency.
"Obsession is a great substitute for talent." - Steve Martin on learning the banjo

merges
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by merges » Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:17 pm

there's a link to a Henke quote going into detail about this. they know about it and left it out for lower latency.
Yes, I have seen his post before. The explanation was a fine description of how things got to where they were.

I think the hope some of us had was that the issue might have been addressed differently going forward. Between manual track delays, MIDI sync delays, strict timing, the automatic delay compensation, etc. etc. there are already a variety of mechanisms by which to customize microtiming in Live. This would be another one that would satisfy those of us who have real problems with plugin delay. (Knowing full well that we might have to deal with greater perceived latency on recording etc.)

(Edit to fix quote issue.)

Tone Deft
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by Tone Deft » Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:01 pm

there's another aspect to this...

when Henke made that statement, when the decision was made we had much weaker, slower computers. when I want LOW latency I don't have to freeze/flatten my set and change to 192kHz sampling rate, my latency is low at 48kHz.

now that it's easier to get lower latency, implement this feature, there's more margin to play with.
"Obsession is a great substitute for talent." - Steve Martin on learning the banjo

agent314
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by agent314 » Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:24 pm

if Ableton are working on the fix they should let us know, not keep it secret just in case it doesn't work.
Remember how well that worked out for them with Share? 3 years later and there are still people who act like them not releasing Share pulled out the lynchpin of their entire creative process

And imagine how many more people would be complaining if they announced they were working on a fix but had to abandon it?

You've seen how much people bitch even when Ableton implements the things they WANT - let alone if they announced something and ended up pulling the plug again

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