LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
doom_Oo7
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by doom_Oo7 » Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:13 pm

PDC is a feature many DAWs attempt to offer, but never quite get it right. Bitwig Studio is among the first to get it right. Using the latest technology in software development, Bitwig Studio ensures no matter how many plugins or devices you add to your mix, everything will playback in time with the mix as it was intended.
\o_
source : http://www.bitwig.com/en/bitwig_1up.html
Ossia Score, an OSC sequencer for intermedia arts - http://www.ossia.io

ezelkow1
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by ezelkow1 » Tue Nov 18, 2014 5:00 pm

Latest technology in software development......a.k.a. a buffer to store I believe 500-700ms worth of data (this was mentioned on their forums while ironing out all their pdc issues for the past 6 months), very cutting edge

That being said, now that its down to 300msrp + retailer discounts its getting much closer to the purchase realm

mholloway
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by mholloway » Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:03 pm

leisure -- 1024 buffer? yikes...I'm glad that is working for you, but over here with my Audio Kontrol, a buffer that large means major latency when using the inputs in Live for stuff like Guitar Rig. I mean, my guitar is literally unplayable at that setting.

I use 256 all of the time. The only problems I've had with PDC relate to instruments with built-in arpeggiator -- the RP Predator often becomes unplayable with the Arp on due to what I believe is a PDC issue (there's an Ableton article somewhee on the site to support that belief, as I recall).

-M
my industrial music made with Ableton Live (as DEAD WHEN I FOUND HER): https://deadwhenifoundher.bandcamp.com/
my dark jazz / noir music made with Ableton Live: https://michaelarthurholloway.bandcamp. ... guilt-noir

leisuremuffin
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by leisuremuffin » Wed Nov 19, 2014 9:50 pm

What sample rate are you using? At 88.2 I get 24 ms of latency. Hardly 'unplayable.' Also those are my settings for working on a complete track, it ensures that it scales up well as more elements are added and that i don't have to change the settings while working. However, when I am using live as a stompbox or to record guitar I have a set that is my guitar template and I reduce the buffer size while using it since i am not going to be adding more tracks or devices to it. If I want to record a guitar part for something else, I simply bounce a scratch mix, drop it in my guitar template set, record it there and then export the audio file. Not really that hard to do.
TimeableFloat ???S?e?n?d?I?n?f?o

kayhel
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by kayhel » Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:15 am

By the way - I again did check S1Pro audio PDC behaviour - with plugins that introduce ~ 300ms plugin delay.
And wow: When I click on <play>, the sound immediately starts - no 300ms delay, no delay at all (except for the 4ms ASIO delay).
Guess they are precalculating the audio (the first 300ms...). Pretty intelligent way of dealing with Plugin Delays, right?
Love it...

Even Bitwig is far away from that.
Bitwig 1.0, Live8 Suite Boxed, Studio One Professional, Melodyne Assistant
Komplete Ultimate, Sylenth, Ozone5

pencilrocket
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by pencilrocket » Fri Nov 21, 2014 12:55 pm

kayhel wrote: 1. All PDC Algorithms need to add delay on other tracks to compensate for a new plugin that has a plugin delay.
Nothing wrong with that.

2. Phasing problems related to PDC in live are not causing typical phaser sound artifacts but have the LFO FXs out of sync - which is the same like an LFO phase adjustment (i.e. filter sweeps starting wrong, but this sounds different from phasing)
wut are you smoking?
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DaWrecked1
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by DaWrecked1 » Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:37 am

Nope. It isn't. Thank you Ableton. I'm beginning to believe what I heard numerous other ppl mention. That Ableton its best programmers....or worse.....they don't care and are just trying to get by milking the market with shiney cosmetic updates and stock plugin emulations from 3rd party programmers (Cytomic).....many of which a lot of us owned anyway (Cytomic's The Glue). How about we fix something as simple as automation timing not flying all over the place before we mess with anything else? No other DAW does this half as horribly as Ableton does. Bitwig is looking more and more like a serious contender to replace Live in my workflow considering how similar they are. Essential functions of a DAW now all work (side chaining and multi outs for 3rd party plugins)in Bitwig judging from what I've seen. Hell u can throw 3 instances of Ozone 5, w/ various processors in Ozone activated, before a filter plugin in Bitwig and draw in automation for the cutoff and the automation plays back perfectly in time with the sequencer. I mean WOW! That AMAZES ME being a Live 9 user. Bitwig isn't the only 1. Automation works fine in Logic, Cubase, Reason, FL, pretty much every other DAW except Ableton. All DAW's have their quirks....but c'mon Ableton... i believe every producer can handle the plugin windows resizing themselves in Cubase as long as the freaking essential functions of a DAW, like keeping the timing of things correct in the sequencer, work.

H20nly
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by H20nly » Mon Feb 02, 2015 5:35 pm

you should switch right away. you don't have time for this shit.

incubator
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by incubator » Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:50 pm

OMG problem still not solved!!?!Shame!

TTOZ
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Re: LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

Post by TTOZ » Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:57 pm

pencilrocket wrote:
kayhel wrote: 1. All PDC Algorithms need to add delay on other tracks to compensate for a new plugin that has a plugin delay.
Nothing wrong with that.

2. Phasing problems related to PDC in live are not causing typical phaser sound artifacts but have the LFO FXs out of sync - which is the same like an LFO phase adjustment (i.e. filter sweeps starting wrong, but this sounds different from phasing)
wut are you smoking?
The poster misunderstood your point 1 but he is correct about 2.. obviously what you mean with point 1 is that ANY vst plugin adds the buffer latency to live - even zero latency plugins.. right? and indeed this IS the only daw to do that.
So say you have 10 vst zero latency plugins inserted in a row in live, and are at 256 buffer, there comes 2560 samples latency when there simply shouldn't be. Every time you remove a vst plugin anywhere in live or add one, automation already done is instantly no longer 100% in time.. And then if you are using plugins with latency, the latency is actually the plug in latency plus this ridiculous latency that live adds for every single plugin (besides the factory ones, they only have latency if the actual plugins have latency for example look ahead on the gate, but no extra buffer latency).. it's all a big convoluted mess, and the single reason I refused to work in Live and gave up on it. See, I initially thought a work around was that I would simply use zero latency plugins.. but even a zero latency delay or reverb is adding latency to the signal path in live.. it's unacceptable. The key is to work at a low a buffer as your machine can handle to minimize it, but what other daw causes issues just to change buffer size in the middle of a project? None.

Re point 2, that is correct however.. Live does sync audio correctly on *playback* with PDC. The phasing problems would happen if there was NO audible pdc at all. But this is not the problem here. The problems with live pdc are this 1) automation not compensated 2) Playhead SPL out of time 3) LFO/sync based effects out of time.
But if you put a bunch of latent FX all over the place, live does compensate the raw audio correctly. No phasing.
I am bitwig, pick me, pick me, i now hAs midi export!

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