Push means APC40 is redundant right?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
beatmunga
Posts: 728
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:20 pm

Re: Push means APC40 is redundant right?

Post by beatmunga » Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:38 am

funken wrote:You mean DJing with Live? Sorry if that's a stupid question.
Yeah, I'm talking about with Live - although the debate about where Djing ends and remixing/ re-editing /production begins is well and truly blurred by using Live in such a way. It can require an inordinate amount of prep too (pre warping and editing etc), making some DJs question the validity.

Not such a stupid question Funken, as I believe that some people use the APC very sucessfully with Traktor. Although the APC is generally best thought of as a bespoke Ableton device, like the Launchpad.
mendeldrive wrote:NOBODY designs their own sounds... There is ZERO point in reinventing the wheel.

the bite
Posts: 167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 8:56 pm
Location: Sevilla
Contact:

Re: Push means APC40 is redundant right?

Post by the bite » Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:00 am

LeifonMars wrote:I'm constantly adjusting faders of my APC while I perform, so no Push. I can't be bothered to learn new methods while I'm perfectly comfortable with APC.
But with push I think you can use the knobs to adjust the level of the tracks.You just use knobs instead of faders.

beatmunga
Posts: 728
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:20 pm

Re: Push means APC40 is redundant right?

Post by beatmunga » Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:07 am

the bite wrote:
LeifonMars wrote:I'm constantly adjusting faders of my APC while I perform, so no Push. I can't be bothered to learn new methods while I'm perfectly comfortable with APC.
But with push I think you can use the knobs to adjust the level of the tracks.You just use knobs instead of faders.
Try adjusting 2 or more rotary pots with one hand. You can do this with faders.

Which is a big reason why DJs like them.
mendeldrive wrote:NOBODY designs their own sounds... There is ZERO point in reinventing the wheel.

102455
Posts: 1638
Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:41 pm
Location: Location: Location:
Contact:

Re: Push means APC40 is redundant right?

Post by 102455 » Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:12 am

Maybe Ableton will release a DJ version and call it the Slide...

:lol:

LeifonMars
Posts: 1104
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 11:48 am

Re: Push means APC40 is redundant right?

Post by LeifonMars » Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:20 am

beatmunga wrote:
the bite wrote:
LeifonMars wrote:I'm constantly adjusting faders of my APC while I perform, so no Push. I can't be bothered to learn new methods while I'm perfectly comfortable with APC.
But with push I think you can use the knobs to adjust the level of the tracks.You just use knobs instead of faders.
Try adjusting 2 or more rotary pots with one hand. You can do this with faders.

Which is a big reason why DJs like them.
This. Though I'm not a DJ.
MBP OSX 10.6.8, Live 8.4, MFII, Evolver, Monomachine, Octatrack, APC40, Launchpad

102455
Posts: 1638
Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:41 pm
Location: Location: Location:
Contact:

Re: Push means APC40 is redundant right?

Post by 102455 » Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:38 am

The APC would be great to use with Traktor - if it was possible to assign the APC pads to trigger the Remix Decks (nearest Traktor gets to Live clips).

Unfortunately NI decided to 'lock' them to controllers other than their own F1, and there's no guarantee they'll ever be unlocked (although they've been hacked).

sporkles
Posts: 3199
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:43 pm
Location: Schmocation

Re: Push means APC40 is redundant right?

Post by sporkles » Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:34 pm

In a nutshell, what sets Traktor apart from Live are its hotcue capabilities, its multiple waveform displays, its streamlined DJ-geared interface and its ability to instantly sync tracks in realtime and jump between sections of an audio file via "freehand" scanning or via hotcues.

I haven't even bothered opening Traktor since the 2.5 update, seeing as the new remix decks are useless if you don't have the F1 controller, as 102455 mentioned.

I'd love it if Ableton were to give us a more modular GUI, allowing for multiple waveform displays and having the waveforms scroll like they do in Traktor. Pair this with making warp markers mappable, you have a winner. (Come to think of it, surely someone must have tinkered with this idea in M4L? - mapping warp markers, that is)

S4racen
Posts: 5431
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2007 4:08 pm
Location: Dunstable
Contact:

Re: Push means APC40 is redundant right?

Post by S4racen » Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:19 pm

beatmunga wrote:APC40 is great for DJing, aspecially with a couple of extra controllers each side for global, track independent mappings (deck filters, beat repeats etc). I find Akai LPD8s good for this - same colour scheme too!

One big problem with the APC though - if you only use 2 virtual 'decks', why can't we have the first 4 tracks of the APC all showing 20 clips of 'left deck 1', with the last 4 doing the same for 'right deck'? Only being able to see 5 clips at once is a real pain if you like chopping up your dj tines into smaller chunks for live dj edits - you need to be able to see all clips available without scrolling!

Wish I was clever enough to learn Max programming...

Be great if a big brother of the Push came out with a crossfader and sliders eventually.
To do that you'd need to learn Python rather than Max4Live... You can do all sorts of things in Max4Live but the clip launching is a python piece of functionality...

I'm looking forwards to Push and APC40 existing alongside each other!

Cheers
D

trilo
Posts: 111
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:28 pm
Location: San Francisco
Contact:

Re: Push means APC40 is redundant right?

Post by trilo » Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:44 pm

I don't think Push makes the APC40 redundant at all. The APC40 is a great performance controller, a fantastic tool for the money. From what I've seen, Push seems to be a more elaborate (as well as expensive) tool geared more towards production. Sure, you could use it for DJing, but with all those pressure-sensitive pads it seems aimed more at musicians and more serious controllerists when it comes to performing with it. I'm tempted to think of the APC20/APC40/Push as a good/better/best type of solution, but there are a lot of really great controllers out there, each suited to different needs and tastes.

I'm eager to get Push when it becomes available, and plan to make room for it alongside my APC40.

djadonis206
Posts: 6490
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 4:23 pm
Location: Seattle, WA.

Re: Push means APC40 is redundant right?

Post by djadonis206 » Fri Nov 02, 2012 3:39 am

Now what would be cool, is if if the APC40 was redesigned to have a slimmer (read narrower) profile. This design would make it easier for Push and the APC40 to live together. Some of us are on a budget when it comes to space.
Ableton | Elektron

Music

LeifonMars
Posts: 1104
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 11:48 am

Re: Push means APC40 is redundant right?

Post by LeifonMars » Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:10 pm

trilo wrote:I don't think Push makes the APC40 redundant at all. The APC40 is a great performance controller, a fantastic tool for the money. From what I've seen, Push seems to be a more elaborate (as well as expensive) tool geared more towards production. Sure, you could use it for DJing, but with all those pressure-sensitive pads it seems aimed more at musicians and more serious controllerists when it comes to performing with it. I'm tempted to think of the APC20/APC40/Push as a good/better/best type of solution, but there are a lot of really great controllers out there, each suited to different needs and tastes.

I'm eager to get Push when it becomes available, and plan to make room for it alongside my APC40.
1. APC40 was just as expensive when first announced. I'm pretty sure Push price will drop as rapidly in 3 years.
2. What exactly makes you think Push is aimed to a more serious controllerist?
MBP OSX 10.6.8, Live 8.4, MFII, Evolver, Monomachine, Octatrack, APC40, Launchpad

dixie237
Posts: 81
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:05 pm
Location: South Coast. UK.

Re: Push means APC40 is redundant right?

Post by dixie237 » Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:26 pm

trilo wrote:
I'm eager to get Push when it becomes available, and plan to make room for it alongside my APC40.
+1 I can see this being very powerful.

I posted in the Push Q&A thread about multi "focus" ability. It would be good to lock pushes focus on a track then use APCs to clip launch / live modulate the set.

synnack
Posts: 2053
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 10:55 pm
Location: Boston, MA
Contact:

Re: Push means APC40 is redundant right?

Post by synnack » Fri Nov 02, 2012 2:42 pm

Push seems to be to be much more about writing music than performing it in a dark club. Other than the pads you play, the rest of the buttons and knobs seem to have no color/back lighting. That ail be nightmare in a dark club.

With the APC40, the endless encoders light up green. This makes for a much better live performance controller. I think using Push on stage would suck compared to the APC40 for this reason alone.
MBP | Live 9 Suite | Max for Live | Push | MOTU Ultralite | iPad | Analog Modular Synths | Moog Voyager
aka "Tempus3r" | Music | Blog | Twitter | Soundcloud

Image

Guigz
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:26 pm

APC40 NativeKontrol/ Bome-enhanced vs. PUSH : the real matc

Post by Guigz » Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:08 pm

Interesting debate

To me the real match is this one : APC40 NativeKontrol/ Bome-enhanced vs. PUSH

The APC 40 with factory/ default setting is just for DJ'ing then a little too restricted in my view.

I bought an APC40 in February and was disappointed by the fact that it didn't offer enough production control options like the launchPad and now Push, especially for playlist drum racks . Like many i looked into Maschine but could not face having 2 controllers - So i turned NativeKontrol to enhance it - this relies on Bome Midi software -

http://www.nativekontrol.com/MapEase_Series.html

For those who know it, They have different packages and for an additional 70 USD it becomes sort of a pre-Push controller

They have done an AMAZING job mapping deeper production controls like a drumpad for drum racks, a step sequencer with additional commands for changing velocity (note : 3 different fixed velocities..) ...keyboard...so really my APC 40 is very close to Push except that the pads are note velocity sensitive so it is less 'playable'

Having said that Push looks amazing and slick, but yeah no faders, but there s probably a way around that ? must be a way that's not clear yet to mix in the same way ? Agree with other comments : it looks def. like a Maschine killer cause a lot of NI users use ableton but always hesitate between Maschine and APCs 40 or 20 - now with Live 9 Push is a no brainer if you want a Maschine-style controller.

APC 40 is still different - so Ableton, show us a bit more what this could mean for DJ'ing + mixing and maybe i ll be tempted

Cheerio 8)

condra
Posts: 2753
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:03 pm
Location: Dublin
Contact:

Re: APC40 NativeKontrol/ Bome-enhanced vs. PUSH : the real matc

Post by condra » Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:19 pm

Guigz wrote:so Ableton, show us a bit more what this could mean for DJ'ing + mixing and maybe i ll be tempted
Push was not made for DJ'ing. It was made for production.

DJs like faders because they are more suited to certain tasks than rotaries.
DJs like visual feedback on rotaries.
DJs like having a lot of controls at their disposal.
DJs like cross-faders.
APC40 has these features. Push does not.

The concept of Push as explained in the "Live 9 Preview Event" was that it solved the problem of writing a piece of music from scratch.

If you want, you can play piano with a Launchpad, and DJ with a keyboard, but they were designed with different tasks in mind.
Similarly, APC40 is gonna be preferable for most DJ tasks, and Push will usually be preferable in studio. If, like me, you are into both production and DJ'ing, then buy both, or compromise.
Last edited by condra on Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Post Reply