Live 9 Pricing

[re:dream]

No, ignorance is just ignorance. Maybe there is other software that beats Live hollow. In fact, I would like to know what else is out there - any tool that I can learn about is good...

[Evil_Banana]

No, ignorance is just ignorance. Maybe there is other software that beats Live hollow. In fact, I would like to know what else is out there - any tool that I can learn about is good...

It's not so much about what else is out there, that's only a matter of preference, just like Windows vs OSX vs Linux is. You can compare numbers and features, but in the end it's all about what floats your boat and makes you work better.
And no, the prices aren't off the chart either.
But I suppose you're not a Suite-owner that already paid 650 for its software? Ableton's communication has been sub-par to non existing, Suite-owners were first left out, then strung along with the promise of a "special offer" for 4 months and finally received 50E discount as "special" offer. On top of that Suite-owners get 1 single week to make the decision to purchase with discount and there's no discount if they don't go all the way at all. All while newcomers or not fully upgrade Live-users get far better deals.
For comparison:
Upgrade from Live 8 Suite (650Euro MSRP) to L9 Suite = 249 Normal price, 199 "Special offer"
Upgrade from Live 8 Standard (350Euro MSRP) to Live 9 Suite = 299 Normal Price, 224 Pre-order

So, When you don't have Suite, you get 25Euro MORE discount. Even at normal prices the difference is minimal. The 300Euro you paid extra for your Suite? It's worth 50 or 25 at upgrade, and that extra business apparently has even less value to Ableton since they reward new customers with the biggest discounts.
They screwed up the website, they forgot to communicate, they messed up the pricing at launch and didn't fare much better since. After 3 years of waiting and fucking with an unstable L8, and then being strung along for another 4 months, you have to put up with this crap on top of that. And what they basically give you in return for all that crap is Audio to midi (cool), improve clip automation (finally), included an existing compressor, finally fixed that retarted browser to the same standard of everyone else, added a couple of visuals to 4 existing plugins, added all their already existing libraries and M4L, and as for M4L they claim includes 24 fantastic plugins without much explanation of what they do or how they work (thus what you actually get). Not even a picture.
And if you don't need Suite, you get F all discount, half of what I listed above and you get downgraded to some mutated Live Standard hybrid with Suite plugins.

The ignorance is not so much in believing that Live is better than others which is a matter of taste as I said, but rather condoning and encouraging them to be treated this way by supporting them with more money without even complaining about their fuck-ups and lack of appreciation for customer loyalty. And yes, we're not changing the world here, I'm no idealist, but we can at least try steering it a bit more in the right direction by being critical and voicing your opinion. If you have Suite and you were as excited about this upcoming release as many were, then this cattle-treatment is a cold shower. If not and you buy Live Suite right now, you will probably get the sensation when Live 10 releases.

And are there fundamentally unfixed problems with Live? Well, apart from still not having dual monitor support... I don't know. Haven't seen L9 up close yet. However Live 8 was a problemchild for a long long time. So giving people only a single week to try out software to see if it's as problematic or not... it's not much decision-time and feels a lot like being pressured into a sale.

[thecageofconsent]

I own Suite 8, with M4L, and my upgrade price is GBP 139

Surely some mistake?

[Evil_Banana]

I own Suite 8, with M4L, and my upgrade price is GBP 139

Surely some mistake?

Nope, your M4L is worth exactly 30GBP, and i suppose that is the "special offer" price which disappears 1 week after release?

[dave dominey]

No, ignorance is just ignorance. Maybe there is other software that beats Live hollow. In fact, I would like to know what else is out there - any tool that I can learn about is good...

It's not so much about what else is out there, that's only a matter of preference, just like Windows vs OSX vs Linux is. You can compare numbers and features, but in the end it's all about what floats your boat and makes you work better.
And no, the prices aren't off the chart either.
But I suppose you're not a Suite-owner that already paid 650 for its software? Ableton's communication has been sub-par to non existing, Suite-owners were first left out, then strung along with the promise of a "special offer" for 4 months and finally received 50E discount as "special" offer. On top of that Suite-owners get 1 single week to make the decision to purchase with discount and there's no discount if they don't go all the way at all. All while newcomers or not fully upgrade Live-users get far better deals.
For comparison:
Upgrade from Live 8 Suite (650Euro MSRP) to L9 Suite = 249 Normal price, 199 "Special offer"
Upgrade from Live 8 Standard (350Euro MSRP) to Live 9 Suite = 299 Normal Price, 224 Pre-order

So, When you don't have Suite, you get 25Euro MORE discount. Even at normal prices the difference is minimal. The 300Euro you paid extra for your Suite? It's worth 50 or 25 at upgrade, and that extra business apparently has even less value to Ableton since they reward new customers with the biggest discounts.
They screwed up the website, they forgot to communicate, they messed up the pricing at launch and didn't fare much better since. After 3 years of waiting and fucking with an unstable L8, and then being strung along for another 4 months, you have to put up with this crap on top of that. And what they basically give you in return for all that crap is Audio to midi (cool), improve clip automation (finally), included an existing compressor, finally fixed that retarted browser to the same standard of everyone else, added a couple of visuals to 4 existing plugins, added all their already existing libraries and M4L, and as for M4L they claim includes 24 fantastic plugins without much explanation of what they do or how they work (thus what you actually get). Not even a picture.
And if you don't need Suite, you get F all discount, half of what I listed above and you get downgraded to some mutated Live Standard hybrid with Suite plugins.

The ignorance is not so much in believing that Live is better than others which is a matter of taste as I said, but rather condoning and encouraging them to be treated this way by supporting them with more money without even complaining about their fuck-ups and lack of appreciation for customer loyalty. And yes, we're not changing the world here, I'm no idealist, but we can at least try steering it a bit more in the right direction by being critical and voicing your opinion. If you have Suite and you were as excited about this upcoming release as many were, then this cattle-treatment is a cold shower. If not and you buy Live Suite right now, you will probably get the sensation when Live 10 releases.

And are there fundamentally unfixed problems with Live? Well, apart from still not having dual monitor support... I don't know. Haven't seen L9 up close yet. However Live 8 was a problemchild for a long long time. So giving people only a single week to try out software to see if it's as problematic or not... it's not much decision-time and feels a lot like being pressured into a sale.

a big fat plus one

[H20nly]

implication: new users always get the better deal
realization: we were all new users once
solution: create new account

[mholloway]

The ignorance is not so much in believing that Live is better than others which is a matter of taste as I said, but rather condoning and encouraging them to be treated this way by supporting them with more money without even complaining about their fuck-ups and lack of appreciation for customer loyalty. And yes, we're not changing the world here, I'm no idealist, but we can at least try steering it a bit more in the right direction by being critical and voicing your opinion. If you have Suite and you were as excited about this upcoming release as many were, then this cattle-treatment is a cold shower. If not and you buy Live Suite right now, you will probably get the sensation when Live 10 releases.

You're able to acknowledge the role taste plays in deciding if a DAW is 'better' (good for you), yet you completely miss the point that maybe -- just maybe -- your personal judgements about what is "wrong" in terms of business practice does not, in fact, represent the judgement of everyone else on this planet.

[v00d00ppl]

implication: new users always get the better deal
realization: we were all new users once
solution: create new account

Finally someone gets it!

[mholloway]

Some of you folks are truly a crazy lot of entitled, spoiled whiners. Jesus christ but the way you moan on and on. An expensive piece of software is soon available to upgrade; It will cost 200 bucks or so to get it, if you want it. Buy it or don't, you miserable sacks. "Cattle treatment," are you kidding me? Or maybe you should take a vacation to Syria and get some much needed perspective on your pathetic value system.

[H20nly]

^

stay focused - 1st world problems m, first world problems...

[redglass]

I own Suite 8, with M4L, and my upgrade price is GBP 139

Surely some mistake?

+1, thats my situation too!

[LesC]

Put me on the list of "entitled, spoiled whiners". I bought two licenses to Live 8 Suite + M4L so that my friend and I could use the Share feature. Am I "entitled" to the features I already paid for three years ago? Guess not. After this pricing slap in the face, I wouldnt buy Live 9 Suite for $1 ... well, maybe in 3 years when they've got it "de-bugged".

[sounddesignandbrands]

Me = Suite8 (boxed) + M4L user/owner

Ableton! Give me an upgrade AND Push for 500€ instead of 648€ and I'm fracking happy. Hell, make it 599€ and perhaps I'm still considering it (because I feel slutty sometimes)! But 648... Nah. Thx.

[Evil_Banana]

You're able to acknowledge the role taste plays in deciding if a DAW is 'better' (good for you), yet you completely miss the point that maybe -- just maybe -- your personal judgements about what is "wrong" in terms of business practice does not, in fact, represent the judgement of everyone else on this planet.

Sorry, but maybe, just maybe it is you who are completely missing the point. I did not claim to speak for "everyone else on the planet". When I talk about the treatment, those are facts that apply and occured to every Suite-owner. Every Suite owner got close to zero communication, got the same special offer, had to wait for the same amount of time and so on. How I feel about that treatment however, is my own opinion. Is my opinion invalid? No, because it determines whether and how much I'll spend on Ableton Products which in itself is proof of good/bad business practise. No business rule or marketing strategy tell what is good or bad business practice, every purchase or pass does. And great business practice even solidifies future sales through customer loyalty and excitement.
Is Ableton gonna go bankrupt? Hell no, not every body feels the same way, especially the non suite owners who are getting a fantastic deal. Are all users complaining? Again, no, non-Suite owners get a great deal, why complain? Are all Suite owners complaining? No of course not, several people don't care about the money, are very excited about the new release or think the treatment is really OK. But several people are not perceiving this launch very well either. And I don't give a damn if you think I'm realistic in my expectations of appreciation, common sense, communication and normal business practice or not. My perception is my own and will determine my purchasing pattern.

You probably consider me to be an entitled spoiled whiner. Well, if you really think Ableton did a fantastic job, write them an E-mail, tell them you really like the price, that the special offer is incredible, that the new feature set is everything you expected from this release, and that their approach to the launch was great, show them your appreciation. Tell em that, write it. And if you can't then you're having just as much doubts as I do even though you may not feel as strongly about it.

Or maybe you should take a vacation to Syria and get some much needed perspective on your pathetic value system.

Damn dude, we're discussing Live 9 pricing and you want to bring this in? And you're talking about perspective? Stating the extreme is an easy way to dismiss just about anything.
"Dear landlord, please fix my plumbing" - "dude what are you complaining about? In Syria people don't have plumbing"
See? That easy. Another one?
"I'm feeling sick, have pneumonia" - "stop complaining, children in africa ar dieing from starvation"
"my aunt has cancer" - "oh please, in China entire vilages suffer from cancer due to polution"
You can easily invalidate anything saying someone else has it worse.
Is this a first world problem? Absolutely, no one's dieing here. Doesn't mean that you should agree with whatever else happens.
On the contrary, it's this attitude that turns stuff to shit. Some people that don't care are in charge, they go a little further one step at a time, and people don't complain, they just undergo, getting more used to contributing while being treated as a doormat. It is a general attitude that leads downwards on all different levels, applies just as well to tyrannic governments as medium companies with bad business practices. Third world problems grew in the same way as the crisis grew.
You know the experiment with the 3 monkey's and the ladder, right?

Now, to circle back to put things into perspective, I am NOT putting Ableton's approach at the same level as a religious tyrannic government, AT ALL, far from it!!! You dragged world-problems into this, I'm just telling you it's a shit argument and attitude trying to invalidate people's opinion by dramatizing the lot.
I'm just a little pissed about the treatment, I'm questioning it and voicing my opinion about it. What happens next is up to Ableton. But people saying to just shut up and suck it up, that's just worse. The you're just being a monkey, stop hitting the other monkeys going for the ladder.

Damn, why the hell did I write this? I swear to hell, everytime again I say it's the last time I reply to dismissive devaluating non-argumentation... this time it really was the last time.

[Machinesworking]

Personally, Ableton of course have a right to charge whatever they want.
When a company charges more than what people were expecting some will complain and others will complain about the complainers.
This is especially true on dedicated forums devoted to a particular piece of software.

Welcome to the internet, it's been around for quite some time, just like this thread in some form or another.

Hey at least nobody is going to get as accidentally burned by corporate moves as this one local guy I know, who bought every embedded plug in for Logic separately right after Apple bought them, literally right before they dropped the price of Logic from $700 to $200 and included the entire package. Can't remember the actual number but it was something like $3,000.00 to $200 in a single day.