Push - is it Polyphonic Aftertouch , or channel?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Angstrom
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Push - is it Polyphonic Aftertouch , or channel?

Post by Angstrom » Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:29 pm

So, Jesse ...

Does push allow each pad to have its own pressure sensitivity, or is it channel wide?

Because I know Live has historically not handled polyphonic Aftertouch well. Or rather, it hasn't recorded it at all.
Has this changed to allow all the pads to work individually ?
Or is push just globally one channel aftertouch parameter.

Jesse
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Re: Push - is it Polyphonic Aftertouch , or channel?

Post by Jesse » Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:41 pm

Hi Angstrom,
When controlling an instrument, Push has channel aftertouch (also known as mono-aftertouch). We have no way to record or represent polyphonic aftertouch (i.e. per note automation) in Live, so we wouldn't be able to play, record into a clip, then send on to a softsynth/external instrument. However, with a drum rack, you can change the repeat volume/pressure of multiple pads at the same time. Many of us at Ableton want Poly-Aftertouch badly, software making is a constant game of prioritization.
Best,
Jesse

Angstrom
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Re: Push - is it Polyphonic Aftertouch , or channel?

Post by Angstrom » Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:49 pm

Jesse wrote:When controlling an instrument, Push has channel aftertouch (also known as mono-aftertouch). We have no way to record or represent polyphonic aftertouch (i.e. per note automation) in Live, so we wouldn't be able to play, record into a clip, then send on to a softsynth/external instrument.
Ah, that's a shame as it was my main desire for Push - to control individual notes differently. I've long been waiting for Roger Linn to start selling his poly-aftertouch Linnstrument, so I was super-double excited to see Push! Imagining multi-finger per-note swells and modulations.

However, I will pop my excitement back into a normal sized box. It's a grid controller then, rather than a multi-fingered articulation instrument. Fair enough.
That's fine enough for now. It looks like a good one.
Jesse wrote:Many of us at Ableton want Poly-Aftertouch badly
I imagine the people working on the poly-aftertouch hardware device want it more than most eh ;)

well, good luck "pressing" your opinion at the specification meetings. I am there in spirit. pushing.

delicioso
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Re: Push - is it Polyphonic Aftertouch , or channel?

Post by delicioso » Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:43 pm

Angstrom wrote:
Jesse wrote:When controlling an instrument, Push has channel aftertouch (also known as mono-aftertouch). We have no way to record or represent polyphonic aftertouch (i.e. per note automation) in Live, so we wouldn't be able to play, record into a clip, then send on to a softsynth/external instrument.
Ah, that's a shame as it was my main desire for Push - to control individual notes differently. I've long been waiting for Roger Linn to start selling his poly-aftertouch Linnstrument, so I was super-double excited to see Push! Imagining multi-finger per-note swells and modulations.
Maschine hardware outputs poly-pressure/aftertouch per pad.

TabSel
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Re: Push - is it Polyphonic Aftertouch , or channel?

Post by TabSel » Tue Nov 06, 2012 10:44 pm

Awesome!!!

So, how do you use polyphonic after touch then exactly?

_seph
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Re: Push - is it Polyphonic Aftertouch , or channel?

Post by _seph » Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:06 am

TabSel wrote:Awesome!!!

So, how do you use polyphonic after touch then exactly?
if you are asking about how it works... imagine that you are holding down a three note chord on a keyboard and you begin to press down harder on one key repeatedly.... with normal (channel) aftertouch this will affect all three notes, whereas with polyphonic aftertouch only the key you are engaging is affected and likewise, if you are applying different pressures to each of the three keys they will all respond individually.

I also found myself really excited about Push thinking that it would be able to take the place of the upcoming LinnStrument, but that unfortunately won't be the case. Although, KMI just announced a new keyboard controller that not only detects pressure, location and velocity but also polyphonic aftertouch --- http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kmi ... controller
I still think I'd prefer the LinnStrument, but should it not manifest this next summer I think this new QuNexus looks very promising

matthews
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Re: Push - is it Polyphonic Aftertouch , or channel?

Post by matthews » Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:23 am

Was thinking of picking this up, errrr I mean 'kickstarting' it, http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kmi ... controller

My understanding is that is supports poly-aftertouch, but what I'm hearing here is that even then it won't work as desired in Ableton? Would it be converted to mono-aftertouch?

Angstrom
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Re: Push - is it Polyphonic Aftertouch , or channel?

Post by Angstrom » Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:11 am

Well, all of these bits of hardware, Push, LinnStrument, Maschine, etc. are will hit the same wall if you are using Ableton as the host, because that's where the bottleneck lies.
currently Ableton handles automation per-channel, it has no per-note automation for instruments and instrumentRacks.

It's what I didn't make clear in my original post, that I assumed that the focus on Push implied that Ableton would be able to handle the poly-aftertouch it can create. I made an assumption which was incorrect there. But the Push hardware is as poly-capable as these other pieces of hardware.

If you want to use them with Live then sign yourself up for that "Learn Max" university course and route the control signals how you'd like them. That might work.

philipc
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Re: Push - is it Polyphonic Aftertouch , or channel?

Post by philipc » Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:48 pm

If the hardware is capable of it then somebody will surely figure out a software workaround. Maybe turn the Push info to midi, send it to a Rewired synth and put the audio into Live? I expect Ableton will be reluctant to let Push do things with non-Ableton software that they can't do with Live but I'm hoping that there'll be a M4L solution.

3dot...
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Re: Push - is it Polyphonic Aftertouch , or channel?

Post by 3dot... » Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:13 pm

this is cool...
http://www.endeavour.de/
Image

Hermanus
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Re: Push - is it Polyphonic Aftertouch , or channel?

Post by Hermanus » Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:43 pm

EVO looks pretty awesome :D

EDIT: and we can download free the virtual EVOSIZER

both standalone and M4L - win/mac [scheduled win version for 12th on november] :idea:

http://www.endeavour.de/evo/software/so ... sizer.html

julienb
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Re: Push - is it Polyphonic Aftertouch , or channel?

Post by julienb » Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:54 am

just tested on my Push: no polyphonic aftertouch.
I tested that in Max6 directly
Max is able to read these informations but from Live (as Max for Live I mean), it wouldn't be able to do that.

BUT, as evoked in this thread, it would be possible to make a M4L stuff reading mono-aftertouch, keeping trace of which note is still On and transmitting aftertouch information per notes..

All of this tested in Live Mode & User Mode.

Guillermo Barrancos
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Re: Push - is it Polyphonic Aftertouch , or channel?

Post by Guillermo Barrancos » Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:05 am

julienb wrote:just tested on my Push: no polyphonic aftertouch.
I tested that in Max6 directly
Max is able to read these informations but from Live (as Max for Live I mean), it wouldn't be able to do that.

BUT, as evoked in this thread, it would be possible to make a M4L stuff reading mono-aftertouch, keeping trace of which note is still On and transmitting aftertouch information per notes..

All of this tested in Live Mode & User Mode.
So the Push hardware itself is Limited to mono aftertouch as well? That's a shame.

metastatik
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Re: Push - is it Polyphonic Aftertouch , or channel?

Post by metastatik » Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:21 am

^^ I don’t have the Push hardware here, but I don’t think that it’s limited to just channel aftertouch. If it were, then what Jesse is saying about repeat wouldn’t work.
Jesse wrote: However, with a drum rack, you can change the repeat volume/pressure of multiple pads at the same time.
That would require polyphonic aftertouch. Also, in the Push script in the Sysex file, there is a SysEx string for changing the aftertouch mode. It looks like this is changed when Note Repeat is enabled/disabled.

Julien, since you’ve got the hardware, try looking at the output of the pads when Note Repeat is enabled/disabled. Alternatively, try sending the SysEx string for changing the aftertouch mode.

stoersignal
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Re: Push - is it Polyphonic Aftertouch , or channel?

Post by stoersignal » Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:45 am

3dot... wrote:this is cool...
http://www.endeavour.de/
i ve got one for sale if you or anybody else is interested!
i got it, cause they wanted me to write an m4l-instrument for it. but i stopped working on it, because from one day to the other i heared nothing from the CEO of endeavour anymore.
i guess they had (or have) some financial problems.
anyway.......
i don`t like the feeling of the keys so i never really got into it. not weighted is by far understated imho

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