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 Post subject: How sensitive will the pads be on PUSH?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:06 am 

Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:23 pm
Posts: 15
How sensitive will the pads be on PUSH?

I plan to use Push for melodic material and sound design. [ I don't use drums in my music ]

I already own the AXIS from C-thru Music as well as Geo Synth on the Ipad. These type of non traditional keyboard layouts are very appealing to me. [ I am sure also played a huge part in the concept for Push ]

I think both the Axis and Geo Synth are great but it looks like PUSH will be a better integrated solution if it plays well and doesn't require a lot of pressure to play notes.
If it doesn't respond to a light touch it will be very difficult to make all of the notes sound when playing fast note passages.

Before Push was announced I was looking into the Soundplane from Mardrona Labs as well as the linnStrument [ not available yet ]. Both of those instruments are are going to be more expressive but also more expensive. [ not to mention not integrated as well with Live ]

Anyone from the development team care to comment on how sensitive the pads will be on Push? Will they respond to a very light touch? In the demo videos it appears that they are using a lot of pressure, nothing is played with a light touch. Any help would be appreciated. If it is more suited as a drum midi controller I will probably hold out for the Linnstrument or Soundplane, but if the pads will respond to a very light touch, my money is spent on Push.


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 Post subject: Re: How sensitive will the pads be on PUSH?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 2:11 am 

Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:07 am
Posts: 1426
Look up the Live 9 Preview presentation, particularly the part where Jesse gives a live performance demonstration of Push in action

He plays super fast runs on the pad grid, so unless he's got borderline inhuman forearm strength and skill, it will allow for very quick playing

I had the same thought though - when they said Akai are the ones doing the building and referred to them as 'masters of pads' all I could think was, have they PLAYED the pads on the MPKs? They barely function unless you're hammering them


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 Post subject: Re: How sensitive will the pads be on PUSH?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 2:38 am 

Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:23 pm
Posts: 15
Your right....Thanks. I didn't notice that they put up another new video.

The first part of the routine he looks like he was using 2 fingers to press down one pad for some parts.

Half way through he does the fast runs and couldn't possibly be using much force when going that quick. Looks like this could be great.

The pads look to be a perfect size for keyboard / note grid playing. Ribbon controller is a smart idea and much more useful and cooler than a pitch wheel.

Unlike so many other midi controllers on the market, I don't think Push is going to be another novelty. It's going to be a real instrument worth investing time in like the Axis, Haken Continuum, or traditional keyboard.

This is so much more than a maschine / monome / apc replacement.


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 Post subject: Re: How sensitive will the pads be on PUSH?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 8:07 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:27 pm
Posts: 636
G&E wrote:
Unlike so many other midi controllers on the market, I don't think Push is going to be another novelty. It's going to be a real instrument worth investing time in like the Axis, Haken Continuum, or traditional keyboard.

This is so much more than a maschine / monome / apc replacement.

If you spend 10-20 minutes with Maschine's new Ableton Live template, you realize you can already do with Maschine in Live what Push does. It has exactly the same flow as APC40, + PAD SCALES. Year you heard me right. PAD SCALES, with colors & shit.


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 Post subject: Re: How sensitive will the pads be on PUSH?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 8:20 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:21 am
Posts: 8804
Location: Amsterdam
I'm also very curious how sensitivity will be cause Maschine has top notch pads..

nevertheless, I'm dumping Maschine..


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 Post subject: Re: How sensitive will the pads be on PUSH?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 8:35 pm 

Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:23 pm
Posts: 15
8x8 grid is better for "PAD SCALES, with colors & shit" than a 4x4 grid. More pads, more note range.
Peter at Create Digital Music blog said
"The challenge may be fatigue playing pads; some velocity sensitivity adjustment will be necessary. But the pads felt good even on a prototype unit. Yes, they’re Akai-built pads."
I guess he was able to test one of these out. Doesn't sound very positive to me.....
I don't own a Maschine so I can't comment on how sensitive the pads are. Everyone says they are way better than the older Akai pad controllers.
I have been using an AXIS controller and it works great, very responsive, but the PUSH grid style layout looks like a nice addition.
I was hoping someone from the PUSH development team would comment on the pads for note / keyboard style playing as it requires a totally different amount of responsiveness then beating out a drum part.


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 Post subject: Re: How sensitive will the pads be on PUSH?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 8:50 pm 

Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:32 pm
Posts: 1556
humnumb wrote:
G&E wrote:
Unlike so many other midi controllers on the market, I don't think Push is going to be another novelty. It's going to be a real instrument worth investing time in like the Axis, Haken Continuum, or traditional keyboard.

This is so much more than a maschine / monome / apc replacement.

If you spend 10-20 minutes with Maschine's new Ableton Live template, you realize you can already do with Maschine in Live what Push does. It has exactly the same flow as APC40, + PAD SCALES. Year you heard me right. PAD SCALES, with colors & shit.


Not enough pads in maschine to make the feature useful... Push is gonna crush Maschine!

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 Post subject: Re: How sensitive will the pads be on PUSH?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 8:54 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:27 pm
Posts: 636
Poster wrote:
I'm also very curious how sensitivity will be cause Maschine has top notch pads..

The funny thing is that for people who have used all the different pads available out there, the name Akai inspires the least amount of confidence when compared to pretty much everything else (Maschine, padKontrol, triggerfinger, axiom...etc. with the exception of Novation Remote line which were laughably rock hard and Korg mikroKontrol which were buttons, not pads), as Akai pads are by far the least sensitive/responsive pads, period. The inherent design flaw in all of Akai's pads (including MPC/MPD/MPK/LPDs..etc all having a gap between the pads and the sensors) make them prone to missed triggering or double triggering and are only good for percussive triggering and suck at expressively playing sustained notes, for example. This is why people who own Akai pad devices end up having to install pad fix modification kits.

The video of the Push, however, seems to suggest that these pads are perhaps not like any other Akai built pads that came before it, so it would be interesting to see how it fares next to the best of them.


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 Post subject: Re: How sensitive will the pads be on PUSH?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:17 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:21 am
Posts: 8804
Location: Amsterdam
humnumb wrote:
Poster wrote:
I'm also very curious how sensitivity will be cause Maschine has top notch pads..

The funny thing is that for people who have used all the different pads available out there, the name Akai inspires the least amount of confidence when compared to pretty much everything else (Maschine, padKontrol, triggerfinger, axiom...etc. with the exception of Novation Remote line which were laughably rock hard and Korg mikroKontrol which were buttons, not pads), as Akai pads are by far the least sensitive/responsive pads, period. The inherent design flaw in all of Akai's pads (including MPC/MPD/MPK/LPDs..etc all having a gap between the pads and the sensors) make them prone to missed triggering or double triggering and are only good for percussive triggering and suck at expressively playing sustained notes, for example. This is why people who own Akai pad devices end up having to install pad fix modification kits.

The video of the Push, however, seems to suggest that these pads are perhaps not like any other Akai built pads that came before it, so it would be interesting to see how it fares next to the best of them.

I've only used Triggerfinger, PadKontrol and Maschine.. Maschine wins hands down. Korg's are pretty sensitive as well, even across the whole pad.. M-Audio was like hammering bricks..

I assume Maschine's pads are OEM parts.. would be good to know if they're from Akai..


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 Post subject: Re: How sensitive will the pads be on PUSH?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:46 pm 

Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:48 pm
Posts: 260
Location: Philadelphia
Akai's pads on their other units are designed to be exactly as they are -- there is a long lineage of hitting pads hard with 2 fingers for playing drums, from those of us who started on MPCs (2000XL for me). Their engineers are really experts in this field, it's been educating to learn from them and see their solutions.

However, we had a different need with Push - we needed pads that are extremely sensitive with instrument tracks, but also 'bangable' with two fingers for drum tracks.

So yes, these pads will feel solid like Akai pads, and they have a deep base to them, but ultimately will be a bit different from all other Akai pads so far in that they will be extremely sensitive for playing instruments (the sensitivity will change when you play drums though).

Hope that clears things up.
Jesse

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 Post subject: Re: How sensitive will the pads be on PUSH?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 12:14 am 

Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:23 pm
Posts: 15
Thanks for the info Jesse.
Push and Live 9 Suite upgrade is a done deal.
I can't wait !!!


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 Post subject: Re: How sensitive will the pads be on PUSH?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:15 am 

Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 3:27 pm
Posts: 299
agent314 wrote:
Look up the Live 9 Preview presentation, particularly the part where Jesse gives a live performance demonstration of Push in action

He plays super fast runs on the pad grid, so unless he's got borderline inhuman forearm strength and skill, it will allow for very quick playing

I had the same thought though - when they said Akai are the ones doing the building and referred to them as 'masters of pads' all I could think was, have they PLAYED the pads on the MPKs? They barely function unless you're hammering them



I agree with this,...the MPK and MPD series aren't known for excellent pad builds however the pads on Push remind me of Maschine's pads...in fact the Push controller looks like a 'high end' version of Maschine, with that in mind, it seems as if Ableton wanted to make sure the build quality and feel of the pads is top notch. :)

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 Post subject: Re: How sensitive will the pads be on PUSH?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:09 am 

Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:03 pm
Posts: 2717
Location: Dublin
The MPK and MPD pads work great if you "upgrade" them with a couple of layers of tape.
Regardless, the newer LPD8 pads are very good.
Considering the brief they were given, I'm really optimistic about the feel and responsiveness of the pads.

I also like that they are not perfect squares, but rectangular, which much better represents Lives matrix than the squares of APC/Launchpad.

Personally what I'm most curious about, is how Push integrates with Ableton and VST devices.
The potential to use it as a dedicated synth controller, with parameter labels is very appealing, as is the idea of browsing instrument presets directly from Push.

Thanks again Jesse for taking the time to address our questions.


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 Post subject: Re: How sensitive will the pads be on PUSH?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:37 am 

Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:48 pm
Posts: 260
Location: Philadelphia
In regards to the pad size/shape, we looked at everything out there, from piano keys to guitar frets to MPC pads, and everything else, and we looked at how lots of different people play. Where we aimed for is big enough to play drums with two fingers, small enough to play melodies. Calipers were used, and fat fingers, and skinny fingers. I am really happy with where we got to (yeah, biased, I know).
J

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 Post subject: Re: How sensitive will the pads be on PUSH?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:55 am 

Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:32 pm
Posts: 1556
Jesse wrote:
In regards to the pad size/shape, we looked at everything out there, from piano keys to guitar frets to MPC pads, and everything else, and we looked at how lots of different people play. Where we aimed for is big enough to play drums with two fingers, small enough to play melodies. Calipers were used, and fat fingers, and skinny fingers. I am really happy with where we got to (yeah, biased, I know).
J


Looks like a good size to me...

In the video, it looked like playing notes was easy... though the aftertouch looked like the fingers had to press hard... in one instance it looked like the player struggled a bit

Are there any sensitivity curves? Can it be adjusted to individual preference? Any possibility of a polyphonic aftertouch upgrade?

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