live 9 - sampler changes?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
glitchrock-buddha
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Re: live 9 - sampler changes?

Post by glitchrock-buddha » Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:18 pm

ShelLuser wrote:
Willyum wrote:That's a shame, almost every other sampler on the market has some form of time-stretch (except Reason).
That's incorrect.

As of Reason 6 (which now includes Record) non-destructive time stretching is also fully supported. For more info see the Audio track support page.
We are talking about samplers not audio tracks. Ie. NNXT, Sampler, Kontakt etc. Ie. things you play as instruments.
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errorspending
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Re: live 9 - sampler changes?

Post by errorspending » Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:03 pm

Time-stretching in sampler is the only thing I want....please ableton please!!! :)

Dragonbreath
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Re: live 9 - sampler changes?

Post by Dragonbreath » Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:49 pm

Not saying that sampler shouldnt have time stretching, but since it doesnt couldnt it possible to time strech a clip, then consiladate it then bring it into a drum rack?

oddstep
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Re: live 9 - sampler changes?

Post by oddstep » Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:21 pm

Dragonbreath wrote:Not saying that sampler shouldnt have time stretching, but since it doesnt couldnt it possible to time strech a clip, then consiladate it then bring it into a drum rack?
.

Yeah, also you can do 1992 style timestretching in sampler with an lfo. That isn't really the point though... In much the same way as 'make your own max for live instrument' isn't the point. Sampler is good because its completely integrated into live and the modulation matrix is nice. I'm too poor to buy kontact and unwilling to run vsts anyway. Sampler should just be better, its obvious what needs to be done and its been around for around 5 years at least. Maybe the Glue compressor or automation curves will deliver the greatest good for the greatest number... I just find it irksome that sampler hasn't been finished.

Johnisfaster
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Re: live 9 - sampler changes?

Post by Johnisfaster » Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:59 am

oddstep wrote:
Dragonbreath wrote:Not saying that sampler shouldnt have time stretching, but since it doesnt couldnt it possible to time strech a clip, then consiladate it then bring it into a drum rack?
.

Yeah, also you can do 1992 style timestretching in sampler with an lfo. That isn't really the point though... In much the same way as 'make your own max for live instrument' isn't the point. Sampler is good because its completely integrated into live and the modulation matrix is nice. I'm too poor to buy kontact and unwilling to run vsts anyway. Sampler should just be better, its obvious what needs to be done and its been around for around 5 years at least. Maybe the Glue compressor or automation curves will deliver the greatest good for the greatest number... I just find it irksome that sampler hasn't been finished.

I absolutely adore that 1992 method.
It was as if someone shook up a 6 foot can of blood soda and suddenly popped the top.

OzWozEre
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Re: live 9 - sampler changes?

Post by OzWozEre » Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:19 am

Johnisfaster wrote:
oddstep wrote:
Dragonbreath wrote:Not saying that sampler shouldnt have time stretching, but since it doesnt couldnt it possible to time strech a clip, then consiladate it then bring it into a drum rack?
.

Yeah, also you can do 1992 style timestretching in sampler with an lfo. That isn't really the point though... In much the same way as 'make your own max for live instrument' isn't the point. Sampler is good because its completely integrated into live and the modulation matrix is nice. I'm too poor to buy kontact and unwilling to run vsts anyway. Sampler should just be better, its obvious what needs to be done and its been around for around 5 years at least. Maybe the Glue compressor or automation curves will deliver the greatest good for the greatest number... I just find it irksome that sampler hasn't been finished.

I absolutely adore that 1992 method.
How the hell does an LFO timestretch a sample? :o

Must look into this!
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Upright
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Re: live 9 - sampler changes?

Post by Upright » Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:30 am

Willyum wrote:Maybe I should get the new Akai MPC Studio instead of Push + Live 9... At least with that I'll have time stretch!


Forgive me if I'm off here, but why would you guys need time stretch.....can't warping accomplish the same result?

Willyum
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Re: live 9 - sampler changes?

Post by Willyum » Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:40 am

Upright wrote:Forgive me if I'm off here, but why would you guys need time stretch.....can't warping accomplish the same result?
Warping in clips is more for using full loops... Time stretch in samplers is more for people who are only looking to use snippets of samples but want to keep either the tempo or pitch of the sample while 'playing' the sound.

A big example of this is slice to midi... It doesn't work well with a warped sample! The timing reverts back to the original timing instead of being quantized, because if quantized the way you warp the file, there will be all types of gaps and layovers without the time stretch.

We all say 'time stretch', but the equal name for this is 'pitch shifting'. If your sample needs to go slower than the original files tempo, but still needs to be in time with your song as you are 'playing' it in a Simpler for example... you play a lower key on the keyboard, then you fine tune it so the timing is perfect..... but now it's out of 'tune' with your song.... and you obviously know that things sound awkward when out of tune with your song, it need to BOTH be timed properly and tuned properly and a proper time stretch/pitch shifter will do this without the sample turning into a muddy grainy mess.

For the exact same reasons that people love warping in Clips for doing remixes... is the same reasons serious Beat makers/Producers NEED proper time stretching in the instruments. That's why it's been in the most popular samplers for 20 years now.

Willyum
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Re: live 9 - sampler changes?

Post by Willyum » Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:01 am

Upright wrote:Forgive me if I'm off here, but why would you guys need time stretch.....can't warping accomplish the same result?
Here's a simple example on keyboard and drum pads, the end of the vid gives harmony examples....

http://youtu.be/--GzodmsZtI

Upright
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Re: live 9 - sampler changes?

Post by Upright » Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:12 am

Willyum wrote:
Upright wrote:Forgive me if I'm off here, but why would you guys need time stretch.....can't warping accomplish the same result?
Here's a simple example on keyboard and drum pads, the end of the vid gives harmony examples....

http://youtu.be/--GzodmsZtI

I guess I'm a little confused here....I'm not new to time stretch but I am new to Ableton and warping audio. I'm currently reading through the manual and haven't quite made it to the warp section yet. Once I tackle that section I'll have a better understanding of the difference between time stretch and warping. Thanks for the info Willyum. :D

glitchrock-buddha
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Re: live 9 - sampler changes?

Post by glitchrock-buddha » Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:43 am

As usual, some people are getting confused about what timestretch is actually used for in a sampler, or rather what samplers are for beyond drum hits/loops! The main use for timestretch in a sampler is for melodic instruments. Things you play on the keyboard. With old school vinyl style sampling, the playback speed of a sample is related to the pitch. Low pitch means the sample plays slower, higher pitch means it plays faster. Timestretch means you can play a sample at different pitches with the same speed. So, if the sample length is important (maybe it has a tremolo or envelope or rhythmic quality that you want to keep intact regardless of the pitch), then you can play different pitches without changing that length. So that's of course very useful and samplers have had this for a long time now. Of course there is also the benefits of this for drum material, single hits and loops. Sometimes you want to change the speed of a sample but leave the pitch alone. In fact I often want to do this. Impulse does it, not sampler. Or if there is a rhythmic sample that you want to fit to the tempo. Yes, you can take it out to a clip, warp it, bounce and put it back in the drum rack slot. And then it is locked to that tempo. Change it and you need to redo. Kontakt for example will follow the tempo. That's another possible use of time stretch.

But personally I see the most important as being the ability to keep the speed the same and change pitch, so that you can make sample based instruments out of even one sample and not deal with the chipmunk effect.
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Dragonbreath
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Re: live 9 - sampler changes?

Post by Dragonbreath » Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:55 am

glitchrock-buddha wrote:As usual, some people are getting confused about what timestretch is actually used for in a sampler, or rather what samplers are for beyond drum hits/loops! The main use for timestretch in a sampler is for melodic instruments. Things you play on the keyboard. With old school vinyl style sampling, the playback speed of a sample is related to the pitch. Low pitch means the sample plays slower, higher pitch means it plays faster. Timestretch means you can play a sample at different pitches with the same speed. So, if the sample length is important (maybe it has a tremolo or envelope or rhythmic quality that you want to keep intact regardless of the pitch), then you can play different pitches without changing that length. So that's of course very useful and samplers have had this for a long time now. Of course there is also the benefits of this for drum material, single hits and loops. Sometimes you want to change the speed of a sample but leave the pitch alone. In fact I often want to do this. Impulse does it, not sampler. Or if there is a rhythmic sample that you want to fit to the tempo. Yes, you can take it out to a clip, warp it, bounce and put it back in the drum rack slot. And then it is locked to that tempo. Change it and you need to redo. Kontakt for example will follow the tempo. That's another possible use of time stretch.

But personally I see the most important as being the ability to keep the speed the same and change pitch, so that you can make sample based instruments out of even one sample and not deal with the chipmunk effect.

Thanks thats alot clearer! Yes we need timestretch in sampler. Encountered this issue once

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Re: live 9 - sampler changes?

Post by Willyum » Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:16 am

Upright wrote:I guess I'm a little confused here....I'm not new to time stretch but I am new to Ableton and warping audio. I'm currently reading through the manual and haven't quite made it to the warp section yet. Once I tackle that section I'll have a better understanding of the difference between time stretch and warping. Thanks for the info Willyum. :D
You're not as far off as you might think.... Warping IS time stretching! There is traditional warping for 'timing'. For instance, you are layering 2 clips by live musicians (drummers for instance), if you just layer the 2 loops on top of each other, you'll quickly notice it's almost impossible to get the snares to line up perfectly.... What warping does is time stretch smaller parts of the loop so that you can nudge a snare forward or backward so that the snares on the 2 layered loops can be aligned while still maintaining the feel of the original loops. When I warp a loop, I usually lock the first beat (kick) to 1.1, then usually lock the snares to 1.2 and 1.4. For 95% of the loops, doing it this way will be pretty much undetectable by most people for the individual loops, but makes all the difference in the world once they are layered.

The 2nd way to use warping is the artistic way, thats when you want to really manipulate the loop to make it something completely different... learn to master the first way first. I say 'master' cause I find that most people don't do the basic warping properly anyway (proper transient locations, proper stretch algorithms, forward-reverse or just forward, formants with Pro...etc). I can't count how many peoples tracks that I've heard that sound dead because they didn't check the transient position and it completely destroyed the attack of the sounds (the artistic way is for when you want to do stuff like that on purpose)

But back to the warp... lets say 1 of the loops, the second snare is dead on but the first snare comes in a little too early (maybe the drummer was a little excited at the start of the song)... the time stretch would work like this....
Ok the first beat is locked at 1 and that first snare needs to be nudged to hit on 1.2. So since it's early, when you slide it over to the 1.2 position Live needs to slow down (stretch down) the area between 1.1 and 1.2... to accomidate for that, it will need to speed up (stretch up) the area between 1.2 and 1.4 so that 1.4 still hits at the right time and then after 1.4 needs to go back to regular speed. A trained 'warper' will use his ear to actually determine where the stretch points begin and end (might start at the last high hat just prior to snare 1.2 and end right after, have to use your ear... may even need to use clip volume ramps or offsets to get it sounding right for really fucked up loops.

Good Warping is an art!!!

And all DJ's eventually become Beat Makers/Producers!
(It's kinda like a sliding scale, start with whole tracks... down to bars... down to beats... next thing you know you're doing micro-edits at 1/64ths).... (Time stretching full tracks... down to 1 bar Clips... down to snippets on individual pads!)

Willyum
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Re: live 9 - sampler changes?

Post by Willyum » Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:27 am

glitchrock-buddha wrote:As usual, some people are getting confused about what timestretch is actually used for in a sampler, or rather what samplers are for beyond drum hits/loops! The main use for timestretch in a sampler is for melodic instruments. Things you play on the keyboard. With old school vinyl style sampling, the playback speed of a sample is related to the pitch. Low pitch means the sample plays slower, higher pitch means it plays faster. Timestretch means you can play a sample at different pitches with the same speed. So, if the sample length is important (maybe it has a tremolo or envelope or rhythmic quality that you want to keep intact regardless of the pitch), then you can play different pitches without changing that length. So that's of course very useful and samplers have had this for a long time now. Of course there is also the benefits of this for drum material, single hits and loops. Sometimes you want to change the speed of a sample but leave the pitch alone. In fact I often want to do this. Impulse does it, not sampler. Or if there is a rhythmic sample that you want to fit to the tempo. Yes, you can take it out to a clip, warp it, bounce and put it back in the drum rack slot. And then it is locked to that tempo. Change it and you need to redo. Kontakt for example will follow the tempo. That's another possible use of time stretch.

But personally I see the most important as being the ability to keep the speed the same and change pitch, so that you can make sample based instruments out of even one sample and not deal with the chipmunk effect.
And yes... +1,000,000, for instruments (creating and sampled) not just drum sounds (I was just trying to keep is simple)

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