I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Akshara
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by Akshara » Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:50 pm

theophilus wrote: more seriously: tempo-synced effects are probably fine (after all, we're talking 1 measly sample) BUT if you have a send routed to an audio track, and are trying to mix 'dry' send with 'wet' effected audio track, they can never mix properly (will always be 1 sample phase offset), not even if you use zero-latency plugins. this is good to know.
This is kind of the very definition of not sample accurate.
theophilus wrote: what's the reason to pull a send back into an audio track? really just curious... it seems that sends are pretty much equivalent to audio tracks, except you can send to them... i mean, you can even send from one send to another... automate them.. is it for further processing, and you ran out of send tracks? (maybe 12 isn't enough).
To record the send return to an audio track in realtime. Or for a dub effect. Or to route all channels and effects sends using a traditional bus structure, like for multiband sidechaining of the same signal across multiple busses, or when routing all drum channels and their effects sends to a single bus for automation, or parallel compression. One could theoretically use additional Sends as busses instead, yet the mixer can get pretty unwieldy when routing things that way, both in Session and Arrangement View, on very large projects.

It is what it is.

Akshara
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by Akshara » Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:01 pm

DIgiDennis wrote: ( yes yes I know I'm a sheep cuzz "i just dont get it" )
DIgiDennis... I offended you, and responded to you curtly earlier in this thread when I was frustrated. I was rude and inconsiderate, and unfair to you. I apologize.

It wasn't that you didn't get it, we were just speaking about different issues and got at cross purposes due to a misunderstanding of what each of us was talking about. I eventually got what you were saying, and how it made sense when reading it from a different perspective.

Again, my apologies.

theophilus
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by theophilus » Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:41 pm

Akshara wrote:
To record the send return to an audio track in realtime. Or for a dub effect. Or to route all channels and effects sends using a traditional bus structure, like for multiband sidechaining of the same signal across multiple busses, or when routing all drum channels and their effects sends to a single bus for automation, or parallel compression. One could theoretically use additional Sends as busses instead, yet the mixer can get pretty unwieldy when routing things that way, both in Session and Arrangement View, on very large projects.

It is what it is.
flattening a track, makes sense. (dub effect? why does that require going back into a channel?)

i think you have to use the additional sends as busses, if you want sample accuracy though... in general, any time there is a potential for feedback, you have to make some choices as to how to order the mixing. the way they've chosen makes sense, though i could see you running out of sends if you do something as complex as what you are talking about :) (you could then send the combined send back to an audio track to flatten it, i guess)

Tone Deft
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by Tone Deft » Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:26 pm

theophilus wrote:(dub effect? why does that require going back into a channel?)
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul07/a ... mixing.htm


the one track of mine where I suspected this issue came into play is a dub track that relies heavily on recorded automation. it was OK until I put Uhbik tools on it, then things got weird. it just didn't sound right. project kind of hit a dead end, I need to go back to rev 6 (it's on 22) and start over a bit. now that I know about this PDC problem maybe I can coax the tune back into shape.

other than that track none of my stuff has much automation in it nor do I do sends feedback. that track has both.
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Schmidi
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by Schmidi » Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:02 am

Here is what is happening on EVERY track in which I try to record my hardware synth to audio in Live. I believe this became a problem for me at ver.8. I've been using Live since 1.5!

-round trip latency is 16.8ms, perfectly stable.
-zero plugs on any channel (including master) save for the external instrument plug for said hardware synth.
-zero manual delay applied/reduced on any tracks.
-zero effects on sends, zero sound passing through sends
-the patch coming from the synth is a fast attack kick drum, and the midi note is 100% quantized to 1/4 notes (see pic 1).
-changing monitoring to either IN, AUTO, OFF changes nothing.

midi clip/setup: https://www.box.com/s/04cyxc2ti480isxhsesv

audio recording WITH PDC enabled (audio is overcompensated): https://www.box.com/s/0sen1h5ph7lwmld48vry

audio clip w/o PDC (audio lags): https://www.box.com/s/63sz01l050cv406hxasn

If there is something stupid that I'm doing, please tell me because I'm sick of this!

morerecords
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by morerecords » Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:45 pm

Akshara wrote:
Machinesworking wrote:You've been doing a lot of assuming about the OP and his issue, and rightly so, since he still hasn't explained why he feels the need to, or has the situation where it's important to monitor his hardware outside of Live.
Genuinely, I don't see why he needs to explain why.

I just saw this. Really? I have to explain why to monitor the direct output??? Shame. Learn to PLAY an instrument..

glenn303
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by glenn303 » Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:12 pm

morerecords wrote:
Akshara wrote:
Machinesworking wrote:You've been doing a lot of assuming about the OP and his issue, and rightly so, since he still hasn't explained why he feels the need to, or has the situation where it's important to monitor his hardware outside of Live.
Genuinely, I don't see why he needs to explain why.

I just saw this. Really? I have to explain why to monitor the direct output??? Shame. Learn to PLAY an instrument..
How does monitoring via the direct output have anything to do with being able to PLAY an instrument? :lol:

vinz89
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by vinz89 » Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:30 pm

If there is something stupid that I'm doing, please tell me because I'm sick of this!
I don't know what's happening with your setup but just a question:
why are you recording audio from ext. 3/4 in your "mains" track ?
If your using ext. instrument device on your midi "nova" track and that it's setup properly (midi to XX and audio from XX), your "mains" track should have the "nova" track on input...

I'm not in front of my laptop so i might be wrong...

Schmidi
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by Schmidi » Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:54 pm

Thanks for looking vinz89. ext 3/4 is the physical input the synth is hooked up to. I did just tried recording with it switched to the Nova track after I read your post, but there was no change. Audio either lags (PDC off) or overcompensates (PDC on) upon recording. :?:

I just tested the same midi clip with an instance of synth 1 and the hit is perfectly on beat 1 2 3 and 4.
I also tried recording pre fx, post fx, and post mixer but there was no change.
I even tried switching midi cables...no change.

broc
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by broc » Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:05 pm

Lightyear wrote:Audio either lags (PDC off) or overcompensates (PDC on) upon recording. :?:
With PDC on, adjust (decrease) the 'Hardware Latency' value in your external instrument.

Machinesworking
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by Machinesworking » Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:27 pm

glenn303 wrote:
morerecords wrote:
Machinesworking wrote:You've been doing a lot of assuming about the OP and his issue, and rightly so, since he still hasn't explained why he feels the need to, or has the situation where it's important to monitor his hardware outside of Live.
I just saw this. Really? I have to explain why to monitor the direct output??? Shame. Learn to PLAY an instrument..
How does monitoring via the direct output have anything to do with being able to PLAY an instrument? :lol:
Especially since morerecords was talking about more than one external keyboard being monitored while looping midi, I'm considering this an on topic troll at this point. Morerecords, one last attempt then I'm done. Reading this again, if your external synths have keyboards you should be able to turn Local Control on and not experience latency while you record them, another solution is to use a hardcore MIDI box like a MOTU MTV/AV and controller keyboard so your rack synths can be directly recorded with the controller before being routed through Live. Otherwise, it's been a long thread, many interesting solutions, and general negativity from you towards any advice at all. :roll:
morerecords wrote: I have my external synths looping, nice little sequences, I havent committed anything to audio yet..
I monitor the DIRECT signal from my UAD Apollo (or any other interface I have used over the years) without it passing through Ableton's monitoring channels.

I can use the "reduced latency when monitoring" option to keep the hardware synth in line while also using plug ins, but- only one synth then, and only while I am keeping monitoring enabled on that external midi track- preventing me from moving forward in the compostion.

Why is the direct signal being affected by the latency the plug ins incur when they get opened? I can't remember since, it's been 3 years and terrible bugs left and right with Ableton 8- but I really dont remember having such issues with Live 7.

DONT tell me to read the manual, I can recite the damed thing. I curse you Ableton, I really can't go forward like this. It's just wasted time and energy, obviously there will never be a resolution.

Can anyone out there tell me how they sequence multiple hardware synths?

Can somebody please explain to me how they are effectively sequencing multiple synths while also using loops and plug ins that exist within Ableton?

Surely someone has at least figured out some methods of dealing with Ableton's "quirks". I don't remember every having issues like this with Cubase VST, or Logic over the years. I may be wrong but I think even with Live 7 things were alright.

I have been trying to keep positive through the Live 8 debacle, but really Im losing hope at this point. I haven't been able to consistently make music for 3 years. AAARGH!

Akshara
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by Akshara » Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:41 pm

morerecords wrote:Why is the direct signal being affected by the latency the plug ins incur when they get opened?
I think broc answered this original question clearly and succinctly. The midi to the external instruments is being moved when the PDC engages, and this was a necessary consequence of introducing Max for Live devices in Live 8, which is why he didn't experience it in Live 7, or in other applications.

If the midi being sent to the hardware could be removed from the PDC equation, then all would be fine. There has yet to be a suggestion offered in the thread which allows for this, and it may not be possible with Live 8.

Everything else in the thread, including my own posts, would seem to be beside the point.

Unless someone has an interesting solution to offer which can remove the externally routed midi from Live's PDC, preferably one which doesn't require monitoring through the software, as this was clear as well...
morerecords wrote:No, there are no effects instantiated on the synths being monitored. In fact, the audio is never passing through ableton. As I said The audio coming from the synths is monitored directly and bypasses ableton. But unfortunalty the midi sequence data being sent to the hardware synths is affected by the audio/pdc from ableton. I only want the midi sequences to remain static whilst traveling via USB to the midi devices, instead of being affected now by variable amounts, depending on which/how many latency inducing plug ins are instantiated on the audio and sample based tracks which do exist inside ableton.

mattianlaseppia
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by mattianlaseppia » Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:06 pm

glenn303 wrote: How does monitoring via the direct output have anything to do with being able to PLAY an instrument? :lol:
You think it is funny?
Actually morerecords has been teased by all the crowd here but he is actually right.

He doesn't have to explain why he wants to monitor DIRECT because that's the right choice for any musicians and producers whom care to have a faithful representation of the performance they are recording, and usually people who work with music know this very well... otherwise the albums we listen to would be very crappy :P

So it has to do with playing ability because having a delayed, jittered, instrument is the worst thing that can happen in keeping the feel with the instrument you are playing, so it is necessary to get the proper inspiration/involvement with the instrument, so yes it can really affect your playing and if you haven't ever noticed this thing, probably, you have to learn to play better your instrument and specially you have to play something like a real piano, which has no sort of jittering, to understand what's a "direct contact" between your hands and the instrument

Read this if you want to go deeper

http://innerclocksystems.com/New%20ICS%20Questions.html
Machinesworking wrote: Especially since morerecords was talking about more than one external keyboard being monitored while looping midi, I'm considering this an on topic troll at this point.
That's the reason why I hate forums... people like you who feel so superior... who have no worries in insulting people calling them trolls... and you don't even consider the eventuality you are wrong, or you've missed something, or you don't have his needs because you work in a different way or you don't have the knowledge and that's why you work in a different way.........

Lot's of assumption, BTW, direct monitoring is crucial and unfortunately there isn't a solution to what the OP is asking... (if there it is let me know!)

To get good timing, jitter free response, you have to turn off the PDC, not use induced latency plug ins and use analog synths or very low jittering digital synths

Plus a thing like sync gen for your timing and a thing like expert sleeper for triggering your external synth... and maybe an hardware sequencer to record all your midi sequences. Unfortunately for now, that's it.

Also, if you think about it a bit, if you want a plug in that does a complex processing which requires added latency to perform the calculations, that latency will be unavoidable... you just hope it is latency and not jittering also

So, the workaround is to plan your workflow very well and do everything that's playing, composition, sequencing, before... than commit to audio and work with processing and any induced latency plug ins you want

H20nly
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by H20nly » Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:35 pm

mattianlaseppia wrote:Lot's of assumption, BTW, direct monitoring is crucial
lot's of subjective opinions too.

mattianlaseppia
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by mattianlaseppia » Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:07 pm

H20nly wrote:
mattianlaseppia wrote:Lot's of assumption, BTW, direct monitoring is crucial
lot's of subjective opinions too.
Please expand. Are you referring to the technical part or to the rant? Because the rant is obviously a subjective opinion. The tech stuff is not.

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