I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
H20nly
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by H20nly » Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:40 pm

mattianlaseppia wrote:
H20nly wrote:
mattianlaseppia wrote:Lot's of assumption, BTW, direct monitoring is crucial
lot's of subjective opinions too.
Please expand. Are you referring to the technical part or to the rant? Because the rant is obviously a subjective opinion. The tech stuff is not.
i would imagine that you could find several members of the forum (at least) that have successfully made music without the need for direct monitoring; therefore, "crucial" is subjective.

glenn303
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by glenn303 » Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:55 pm

mattianlaseppia wrote:
glenn303 wrote: How does monitoring via the direct output have anything to do with being able to PLAY an instrument? :lol:
You think it is funny?
Actually morerecords has been teased by all the crowd here but he is actually right.

He doesn't have to explain why he wants to monitor DIRECT because that's the right choice for any musicians and producers whom care to have a faithful representation of the performance they are recording, and usually people who work with music know this very well... otherwise the albums we listen to would be very crappy :P

So it has to do with playing ability because having a delayed, jittered, instrument is the worst thing that can happen in keeping the feel with the instrument you are playing, so it is necessary to get the proper inspiration/involvement with the instrument, so yes it can really affect your playing and if you haven't ever noticed this thing, probably, you have to learn to play better your instrument and specially you have to play something like a real piano, which has no sort of jittering, to understand what's a "direct contact" between your hands and the instrument

Read this if you want to go deeper


http://innerclocksystems.com/New%20ICS%20Questions.html
Machinesworking wrote: Especially since morerecords was talking about more than one external keyboard being monitored while looping midi, I'm considering this an on topic troll at this point.
That's the reason why I hate forums... people like you who feel so superior... who have no worries in insulting people calling them trolls... and you don't even consider the eventuality you are wrong, or you've missed something, or you don't have his needs because you work in a different way or you don't have the knowledge and that's why you work in a different way.........

Lot's of assumption, BTW, direct monitoring is crucial and unfortunately there isn't a solution to what the OP is asking... (if there it is let me know!)

To get good timing, jitter free response, you have to turn off the PDC, not use induced latency plug ins and use analog synths or very low jittering digital synths

Plus a thing like sync gen for your timing and a thing like expert sleeper for triggering your external synth... and maybe an hardware sequencer to record all your midi sequences. Unfortunately for now, that's it.

Also, if you think about it a bit, if you want a plug in that does a complex processing which requires added latency to perform the calculations, that latency will be unavoidable... you just hope it is latency and not jittering also

So, the workaround is to plan your workflow very well and do everything that's playing, composition, sequencing, before... than commit to audio and work with processing and any induced latency plug ins you want
Yes. 5 months later and I still think this is funny. :lol:

mattianlaseppia
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by mattianlaseppia » Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:35 pm

H20nly wrote: i would imagine that you could find several members of the forum (at least) that have successfully made music without the need for direct monitoring; therefore, "crucial" is subjective.
Yes, I didn't mean that, but depends on the way someone is working, if you do everything using VI ITB and you program everything, surely you don't need direct monitoring, or if you use a master key just to put the notes and then quantize, etc... again you don't need direct monitoring

If you have to record a piano performance or something where the performance is really important... well, every studio I've been in use direct monitoring for that... usually a console or a sound card that allows direct monitoring or PT HD

Obviously you still can get a good performance without using direct monitoring, but the same performance would have been better if done using direct monitoring, it isn't something that can really be compensated specially if we are talking about jittering (which is random and not so easy to detect, except a general feel of sloppyness)

H20nly
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by H20nly » Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:51 pm

i'm a little confused by your use of direct monitoring. personally i don't control that with my DAW there is knob and a button on my interface that can assist me with this. i typically listen to my vocals with the audio in the background therefore direct monitoring is insignificant. the only point where it comes in handy is when i'm doing a mic check and not hearing anything - i would hardly call that a vital piece of the puzzle. in a situation where i am recording my bass or a guitar player is present... again, the rest of the music needs to be heard to play along to. so, in both cases monitoring directly is a wash beyond the setup process in my experience.

if you are referring to a studio scenario where you have a control room and a separate room for the artist being recorded i can understand the need to flip back and forth between the track vs. the mix, but again this can often be done from the interface, it doesn't really need to be done at the DAW level.

am i misunderstanding your needs or are you doing something creative in a way that i am failing to comprehend via this text vs actual conversation scenario??

mattianlaseppia
Posts: 111
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by mattianlaseppia » Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:01 pm

look man, the OP is a pro or sort of (that's easily understandable by his posts) and he is using Ableton as a pro would do

Meaning a pro would ever record monitoring from the speakers (unless in certain occasions and placing the mic out of phase with the speakers). That is because the bleeding from the speaker would make the recordings unusable. Meaning that when an audio engineer will mix the tracks, compress ecc.. the background noise and music will create phase problems and general noise

The way you are working is perfect for bedroom demo, draft, catching ideas, even doing an album if you like the way it sounds and you want to keep it in that way

But usually if you are doing a commercial release you record using direct monitoring and, if you are recording a vocal part or any acoustic instrument ecc.. you use headphones so the bleeding doesn't come in the recordings

If you are making a song, catching ideas and so on... you can even use the internal microphone of your laptop, I did that... quite few times

BTW even in your way of working direct monitoring is a benefit.. but to do that you need a soundcard with an internal mixer that allows to monitor the signal directly before sending it to the DAW

In that way you still avoid latency and jittering of your daw, plug ins etc.

BTW isn't my use of direct monitoring, is THE use of direct monitoring... it has just one purpose, to let you hear the sound of your instrument before anything else, just as it comes in the soundcard and not affected by anything that happens after it

H20nly
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by H20nly » Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:27 pm

mattianlaseppia wrote:look man, the OP is a pro or sort of (that's easily understandable by his posts) and he is using Ableton as a pro would do
:roll: yeah he has told us all about that.
mattianlaseppia wrote:Meaning a pro would ever record monitoring from the speakers (unless in certain occasions and placing the mic out of phase with the speakers). That is because the bleeding from the speaker would make the recordings unusable. Meaning that when an audio engineer will mix the tracks, compress ecc.. the background noise and music will create phase problems and general noise
i'm sorry, i missed the part where i said i was recording "ever" from the speakers. i am using a headset. ffs. seriously?

is that part about the bleeding from the speakers a pro tip? because i figured that out many many years ago when i first started recording. maybe i just got lucky. or maybe even a fucking idiot could figure it out. hmmm what is that noise.... if only i knew a pro who could explain it to me.
mattianlaseppia wrote:BTW even in your way of working direct monitoring is a benefit.. but to do that you need a soundcard with an internal mixer that allows to monitor the signal directly before sending it to the DAW
you could tell by my post that i'm familiar with that... since i have one.

i don't really care for your holier than thou attitude, much like i don't care for the OPs.

the truth is, neither of you know who i am or how many tracks/albums that i've done the vocals on that have been released.

now, let me give you a pro tip - don't use the internal microphone of your laptop. try a condenser mic :wink:

H20nly wrote:i typically listen to my vocals with the audio in the background of my headset so that i'm not laying vocals over silence ffs therefore direct monitoring is insignificant.
fixed so the Pros know what i meant. :roll:
have mercy.

good luck with your wish list.

:arrow:

mattianlaseppia
Posts: 111
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2006 5:40 pm

Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by mattianlaseppia » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:41 pm

H20nly wrote:
H20nly wrote:i typically listen to my vocals with the audio in the background of my headset so that i'm not laying vocals over silence ffs therefore direct monitoring is insignificant.
fixed so the Pros know what i meant. :roll:
have mercy.

good luck with your wish list.

:arrow:
I'm sorry if I sounded rude or anything, it really wasn't meant... I read "in the background" and was clear to me you were referring to recording monitoring through the speakers

I just wanted to say that's very understandable if someone needs direct monitoring and telling to the OP to not use direct monitoring (as someone said) isn't a solution not even a workaround

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