Okay, I almost deleted this. But I'm going to post it anyway, because what the hell. Grab the popcorn.
H20nly wrote:did you read the whole thread or just part of it? the last few pages or so everyone seems to be getting along just fine... scroll down to the post from theophilus. can't miss it, it's a giant screen shot. he posted some really good test results and others are starting to identify specific reasons in their chains for PDC errors - not just "this doesn't work grrrrowl growl"... like... some people.
While the research in that thread is interesting from a research perspective, it is testing very straightforward and purely theoretical scenarios which are relatively easy to work around, yet doesn't address the advanced real world scenarios that one would encounter in practical applications on complex projects. And in my opinion, is actually adding more confusion for those who don't really get the full scope of the issue, and is unintentionally downplaying the complexity of the problem.
H20nly wrote:anyway, this thread has you looking a little schizophrenic at the moment... are you telling us how it should be, taking jabs at the forum, here to tell us if we're using Live right or wrong, looking for help, or just posting to say good bye?
Whatever his reasons, I imagine you'll give him a good shellacking for asking.
I get where he's coming from and completely understand his exasperation. It is incredibly frustrating when you have been troubleshooting a complicated problem and are at your wit's end, and come here to ask for help, and those who don't really understand the problem offer up solutions that either have been tried already or simply aren't relevant, or jump on your case for not using the software properly.
Maybe give the guy the benefit of the doubt as a professional instead? Ever call your ISP or OS tech support for an advanced issue and have them talk you through steps like unplug your modem and restart your computer, like you're an idiot who doesn't know what you're doing? It's kind of like that around here at times.
Machinesworking wrote:Seems to me DigiDennis posted a working method here…. Personally I've never direct monitored my hardware synths, I would try a different method.
Man, some of you guys...
I can think of a handful of reasons one would prefer a direct monitoring situation, all of them desirable in a professional studio. One of the studio's I worked in had every input across a person-tall rack of interfaces direct monitored by default, for use with a digital console and with outboard patch bay routing, and could not be changed on a whim, and we still had to maintain sync between two DAW systems, several ADATs and a rack of outboard midi hardware and keyboards anyway. If I suggested that we monitor through the software instead, or that we set up a template with every piece of outboard gear as an External Instrument in Live, I'd probably be laughed at before being told we weren't doing it and to find a solution anyway or to hit the door.
DigiDennis' method isn't a working method for the situation being asked about. With respect, Machinesworking, you post that you've never direct monitored your hardware synths, yet give the guy grief for dismissing an irrelevant suggestion, and then offer advice anyway… and that advice is to not direct monitor hardware synths.
I can see why he'd be exasperated.
vinz89's suggestion demonstrated a genuine understanding of the problem.
morerecords wrote:Can anyone out there tell me how they sequence multiple hardware synths?
Can somebody please explain to me how they are effectively sequencing multiple synths while also using loops and plug ins that exist within Ableton?
I've tried several scenarios: running Live as a dedicated midi sequencer slaved to a second master audio recording system; or running Live as a sampler/looper instrument in tandem with the hardware instruments, slaved to a second master sequencer/recorder; or with Live being the master sequencer and recorder, and manually sliding midi notes late while using delay offsets to sync everything up, similar to what rtcardinal and vinz89 have suggested; or committing parts to audio as soon as possible, then scooting them in place to line up with everything else - which is hit and miss when the audio and automation are out of time with the visible grid - and inserting blank audio at the start of each track and then consolidating printed clips into single files that span the project length so that they maintain internal timing integrity and are easy to drag around if/when things drift out further as the project progresses.
You mentioned Logic earlier. Bottom line is that Live does not offer a Latency Toolbox like Logic does, and is not designed well for complicated
external hardware setups. Live is just not precise when it comes to timing. Its whole thing is about manipulating audio and time in the most flexible way imaginable - while at the expense of precision. Heck, MacProVideo has a six hour tutorial on how to manage latency and timing in Logic to a sample accurate level. Ableton hardly even acknowledges that there's a timing problem, and had to change the Live 8 manual due to public outcry over it.
One can make it work of course, but it takes a lot of management. In my opinion, it is much easier to manage when Live is treated like an instrument alongside your hardware, and when there is either another instance of Live or a different DAW on a different system altogether for recording the audio from everything to one central location. That's what I would consider looking into in your case.
rtcardinal wrote:It seems that midi, automation, display and video are not properly compensated in Live when adding plugins which cause latency. Therefore your direct monitored stuff will come in early. I can get a sense of your frustration, as that would be pretty chaotic to say the least when compound it with any sloppy midi timing (par for the course, except when using innerclocksystems stuff for clocking external midi clocks). I've pretty much given up on sequencing lots of hardware, personally (that's another story) - It's a constant battle to keep things in sync pretty much anyway you do it...
I think the only thing you could would be to calculate the exact amount of latency that is being caused by your plugins in ableton, and then delay the midi being sent to your synths by that much. Of course, this a moving target, and you'll have to do this every time your overall latency changes. Good luck... I'd personally hate that.
Finally, someone who genuinely recognizes the scope of the problem and offers a thoughtful word. Once midi, automation, tempo based effects and the GUI get out of sync internally within the application - then what exactly is the point? Keeping databases of latencies and timing dependencies, printing to audio at nearly every stage, manually scooting clips, midi events and automation nodes, while aligning them to a visual grid that is audibly out of sync... I personally do hate it.
Which is why I have stopped using Live for work that requires precision midi timing and automation, and only use it for audio loops, sketching ideas and live performance.
morerecords... I think that you likely know all of this well enough already, and what the solution is.
morerecords wrote:So, Nobody, huh?
Ok I see now that you are not interested in a solution to what ever problem you think you have with the software.
And then here's yet another person who doesn't recognize it, because it hasn't happened to them. So it must not be real. That never gets old.
DIgiDennis wrote:why do you bring PDC into this? it's not even remotely relevant esp. when you insist on direct monitoring through your interface...weird?
Because... he's already got a system which works just fine with direct monitoring, and has for years, and he knows how to compensate for traditional audio and midi latencies and that isn't the problem; and he wouldn't be having a problem at all using a more traditional DAW, such as Logic, Studio One, ProTools, Digital Performer, Sonar, or <insert your DAW here>, or according to him, even earlier versions of Live. Yet Live 8's internal
PDC is broken, and moves all kinds of shit around in bat shit crazy ways... and there have been several dozen threads over the last several years, across several forum communities, with several dozen explanations, theories and well meaning tests to the point that this horse is freaking dead.
If Live is internally out of sync with itself, then it doesn't matter how precise your external latency compensation routine is, or whether you use External Instrument or not. Things will still sound out of sync.
I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt of being a professional, of course. And that he knows what he's doing, and is referencing this to the PDC issue because it is affecting him on practical level. But if you want to insult him and treat him like a 101 amateur who needs to learn how to connect his audio interface, then go right ahead.
Tone Deft wrote:the word 'rewrite' has been used a lot with Live 9 but you've been optimistic long enough.
This is good advice. Live could still be be a great instrument in your arsenal, morerecords. Kind of like a sampler on steroids. But maybe it's just not the right DAW for the heart of your system, at least not anymore.
Good luck with it, wish there was a simple fix; and sorry I kind of lost it on your thread. Needed to be said, if only for myself.