I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
DIgiDennis
Posts: 142
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:07 am
Location: DK - 1659

Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by DIgiDennis » Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:50 am

And then here's yet another person who doesn't recognize it, because it hasn't happened to them. So it must not be real. That never gets old.
How do you know "i don't recognize it"? you just assume. Trust me I've struggled with synchronization of external gear with the PC(never used a mac) based DAWs I've used, not just Live.
Of course direct monitored is never in sync with any DAW, PDC or no PDC, because the DAW doesn't know how your midistream behaves or the gear to it, it can't.
So one solution, the one you think works best for you it seems, is to manually tell it to the DAW for each midistem. Very cumbersome and at worst the delay is not constant and fluctuates. I guess we can agree so far, no?

So the solution for me is to use an external instrument that aligns the audio, instantly without any involvement from me.
Now you might find that laughable with your massive professional studio setup galore.

Answer my one thing though: Does the External Instrument align the incoming audio to the proper midi event, yes or no?

Akshara
Posts: 377
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 10:16 pm

Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by Akshara » Sat Nov 10, 2012 1:51 am

H20nly wrote:i wasn't going to reply to this because it's become obvious that at some point somewhere i have offended you...
Not so much. I just don't appreciate the manner in which you speak to people on the forum here.
H20nly wrote:firstly, to say that the mentioned PDC thread was all shenanigans is to take away from the efforts made by some to not only understand the problem themselves, but to help others understand it as well.
I didn't say it was all shenanigans. I said it was interesting from a research perspective. The effort is commendable, I just don't see it leading to a practical result unless the testing methods incorporate real world scenarios, with plugins that someone would actually be using when the issue comes up in a real world project. That's my opinion.

I also feel that automation being out of sync isn't the more important of the PDC issues. Timing dependent effects being out of sync makes certain types of sound design literally impossible to do in Live, yet it has been relegated to the sidelines, at least in that thread anyway. It gets tiring explaining the issue over and over again.
H20nly wrote:it seems that answer is also twofold:
A. complain for the sake of complaining
B. draw/keep Ableton's attention upon the matter in a constructive way
or C. give people upset by the situation grief and stir them up.

You're participation in that thread is two parts C and one part B. Anyone can read the thread and judge whether that is accurate, or whether I was an A, B or C for themselves.

This would have had more impact on me three or four years ago. Back then I too did my lion's share of testing, troubleshooting and pathfinding, and held out hope that it would be addressed in the next version of Live.

Now I'm just tired of the whole thing. Of course, I don't mean to dissuade others from trying. Go for it. I'm just not that into it, nor do I have the time or inclination to divert from my production work or down time to chase something down a rabbit hole with no positive outcome. I don't have a lot of faith in it making an impact on Ableton. If I did, maybe things would be different and I'd find the time. Right now, that's just not the truth for me.
DIgiDennis wrote:How do you know "i don't recognize it"?
Because your whole response here says so. We literally aren't talking about the same issue.
DIgiDennis wrote:So one solution, the one you think works best for you it seems, is to manually tell it to the DAW for each midistem. Very cumbersome and at worst the delay is not constant and fluctuates. I guess we can agree so far, no?
No, because that's not what I was talking about.
DIgiDennis wrote:Answer my one thing though: Does the External Instrument align the incoming audio to the proper midi event, yes or no?
Yes.

Does using the External Instrument align the incoming audio to Live's internal audio which has been shifted forward due to inserting a timing dependent plugin in series after a latency inducing plugin?

Answer that, and we will be on the same page.

H20nly
Posts: 15838
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:15 pm
Location: The Wild West

Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by H20nly » Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:48 am

i'm not doing this break every post down by sentence structure thing with you.

who exactly did i stir up? seems like mostly you.

i gave a dude grief at the beginning of the thread who expected that his paper manual be updated when ever Ableton make a change. then there is MrFingerDrums who is an alt nick whose handful of posts consist of Ableton bashing and calling me Tone Deft. wow. what a bad person i am. :roll:

so if i make a comment or joke when someone is being an unreasonable asshole (not simply stating their case) to Ableton and to other forum members because Live isn't working the way they think it should - you will be bothered by it. noted. i can live with that.

*shrugs*

Akshara
Posts: 377
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 10:16 pm

Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by Akshara » Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:53 am

Stirring the pot is kind of your thing. Normally I could care less. But sure, I'll consider you Mr. Sunshine and Rainbows from now on.

c33
Posts: 196
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:18 pm

Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by c33 » Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:56 am

To the OP: I just skimmed through some of your posts and it seems like Ableton has been all problems and no solutions for you for quite a few years now. I'm sorry this has been your experience. But yeah, I agree, if all you're doing is struggling to use the DAW and not making any music, what's the point? Time to move on.

Machinesworking
Posts: 11102
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by Machinesworking » Sat Nov 10, 2012 5:44 am

Akshara wrote:
Machinesworking wrote:Seems to me DigiDennis posted a working method here…. Personally I've never direct monitored my hardware synths, I would try a different method.
Man, some of you guys...

I can think of a handful of reasons one would prefer a direct monitoring situation, all of them desirable in a professional studio. One of the studio's I worked in had every input across a person-tall rack of interfaces direct monitored by default, for use with a digital console and with outboard patch bay routing, and could not be changed on a whim, and we still had to maintain sync between two DAW systems, several ADATs and a rack of outboard midi hardware and keyboards anyway. If I suggested that we monitor through the software instead, or that we set up a template with every piece of outboard gear as an External Instrument in Live, I'd probably be laughed at before being told we weren't doing it and to find a solution anyway or to hit the door.

DigiDennis' method isn't a working method for the situation being asked about. With respect, Machinesworking, you post that you've never direct monitored your hardware synths, yet give the guy grief for dismissing an irrelevant suggestion, and then offer advice anyway… and that advice is to not direct monitor hardware synths.

I can see why he'd be exasperated.
Great, you've worked in a studio with a ridiculously complex scenario were you needed to monitor directly, morerecords is describing a totally different scenario.
In his situation, monitoring directly is messing up his timing, if he chose not to monitor directly it would not. That you and obviously him have an issue with easy advice instead of an attempt to delay a track by X amount that will eventually drift of you add Y plug in on track Z etc. etc. isn't my concern. You want to bang your head against a wall to make Live behave in a way that's unnatural for the program be my guest. I simply gave a solution that would work, period.

Akshara
Posts: 377
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 10:16 pm

Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by Akshara » Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:04 am

Machinesworking wrote:In his situation, monitoring directly is messing up his timing, if he chose not to monitor directly it would not.
Maybe I misunderstood his posts, but it seemed to me like he was comfortable with his workflow, yet frustrated with the effect the PDC issue specifically was having on his hardware, which was why he referenced the 24 page thread; yet got grief for using direct monitoring instead.

I was presuming, because he pointed to the discussion about it, that he was referring to the PDC issue where Live loses sync with itself due to inserting latency inducing plugins in series with timing dependent plugins, and that this was complicating his hardware sync, not the basic 101 audio/midi latency caused by basic PDC delay. All of my suggestions and comments to him were based upon this as a foundation of the discussion.

Either he didn't understand what he was referencing, and needs some basic setup help; or did understand what he was referencing, and got jumped on for no good reason.

UltimateOutsider
Posts: 241
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:02 am
Location: Portland, OR

Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by UltimateOutsider » Sat Nov 10, 2012 8:40 am

Can someone recommend some plugins or a plugin chain that would help me reproduce the scenario described here?

I put together a little project that plays tracks on five hardware synths (set up as External Instrument devices, all playing live on separate stereo input pairs) and two VSTis. I've also got two reverbs, a delay, a chorus, and a limiter plugin thrown in there. Everything's playing in time without any adjustments, but I assume this is because I haven't introduced the right kind of plugin into the mix.

To people experiencing these sync issues- what plugins or actions seem to trigger the timing problems? I'd like to experiment a bit with this.

Hermanus
Posts: 1648
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:47 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by Hermanus » Sat Nov 10, 2012 1:06 pm

I haven't been able to consistently make music for 3 years
I think this only sentence reflect few efforts.

I'm not saying there is no problem with pdc or external hardware headaches.
One day I encountered some problems with latency and external synths that were tough to configure right with the daw.
So then I've learnt to find workarounds.
Keep focus on the good points and you'll find a way to do your stuff.

Saying this only problem have been blocking you making music for 3years is a bit exagerated.
Do you have the will and envy to make music, really?
Musician is about composing music ok?
But it's also about sound ingeneering, informatic connexions, acoustic knowledges.


Every musician / producer I've met do all their possible to achieve their ideas.
Being confident with your set up when it's well done is important

Lots of advices for you to try & use the external instrument device but it seems you prefer camping on your spot and not trying what long users of ableton live suggest you.

my best workaround with external synths was simply to record the thing and once I'm glad with it, bump to audio and go on with it... workflow is happy. user is happy.


H2only being arrogant on the forum? no way.

tone deft, h2only, 3dots, funken [and I forget a lot of them] are truly here to share and help when they can.

I guess this pdc/hardware thing put the nerves around


what is this pdc stuff have done to me?

1. I learned to be careful with rack chains
2. finaly it is good, this only point lead me to design racks so they're light with cpu and pdc
3. does it s#ck I have to limit my use of ableton live?
I answer straight I don't feel limited, I'm pleased to understand the program I use and find THE way to compose efficiently

I before complained about hardware synths latency.
You know what? it was not pdc it was a dumb usage of my soundcard, once I set it up right, problems have vanished.
No more latency

I love ableton live because there's always a workaround :lol:
I really mean it :idea:

Akshara
Posts: 377
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 10:16 pm

Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by Akshara » Sat Nov 10, 2012 1:09 pm

UltimateOutsider wrote:To people experiencing these sync issues- what plugins or actions seem to trigger the timing problems? I'd like to experiment a bit with this.
viewtopic.php?p=1450314#p1450314

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=157048

Akshara
Posts: 377
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 10:16 pm

Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by Akshara » Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:06 pm

Hermanus wrote:tone deft, h2only, 3dots, funken [and I forget a lot of them] are truly here to share and help when they can.
Maybe. I've also had occasion to witness their dickish side too, at least from the first three in that list. Eight years is a long time.

You seem like a genuinely positive and nice guy. Maybe their sardonic wit passes by you. Then again, you did list them all together.
Hermanus wrote:I love ableton live because there's always a workaround :lol:
I really mean it :idea:
With the PDC timing issue, in some circumstances the only workaround is to either give up one's workflow altogether or use a different DAW.

And In my opinion, "then don't do that" isn't a genuine workaround.

Sage
Posts: 1102
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:16 pm
Location: London
Contact:

Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by Sage » Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:35 pm

UltimateOutsider wrote:Can someone recommend some plugins or a plugin chain that would help me reproduce the scenario described here?
Linear Phase Equalizers. They work by adding latency to the signal to keep the entire spectrum in phase. Use a LPEQ on a number of tracks and you'll get everything out of time as the amount of latency introduced varies as its based on the settings of each EQ.

Tone Deft
Posts: 23565
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm
Location: SF, CA

Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by Tone Deft » Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:29 pm

Akshara wrote:Maybe. I've also had occasion to witness their dickish side too
pots and kettles, you're on day 3 of getting personal with us. chill out.
oddstep wrote:I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"

Akshara
Posts: 377
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 10:16 pm

Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by Akshara » Sat Nov 10, 2012 6:05 pm

Not a problem with you personally, just an observation.

I was dragged into the crossfire the other day, and didn't appreciate it; and would request the same "chill out" as well.

WaveRider
Posts: 627
Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 2:33 pm
Location: Montreal

Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by WaveRider » Sat Nov 10, 2012 6:49 pm

morerecords wrote:Thanks .yes. You're using it wrong. :D

Is anyone out there using multiple hardware synths, (monitoring directly and not from within ableton) alongside using plug ins within ableton for affecting audio of software based midi tracks?

How are you dealing with the latency/timing issues?

Really at the end of my rope,

that is not really possible if you expect great timing. All hardware, or all in the box is easier. But if you want hardware in sync with vst within live, you can try innerclock products.

http://www.innerclocksystems.com/New%20 ... ducts.html

Post Reply