I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
gisela-idol
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Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:23 am

Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by gisela-idol » Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:36 pm

vinz89 wrote:
My main problem with the delay compensations is when midi an audio are recordet together, and you playback that midi, the events triggered by this midi are not in time and there is no setting that can compensate for that.

You allways have to shift the midi playback manually to make ist fit.
Well, the thing is, you'll get perfect sync when monitoring on the audio track is set to off... the downside is, you don't monitor the incoming sound from within live as you record this way...

to get a perfect sync and hear what you play or sequence, you have to
- set a negative amount in the midi track delay corresponding to your overall latency (input+output)
- be sure you have the "reduce latency when monitoring" option enabled

Not so complicated...

That dont works, the placement still will need adjustments when you drive an external mididivice..

And on Plugins that dont works because you cant play them with monitor disabled.

So its far from easy, i would call it rather screwed.

Try yourself to do audio and midi simultaniously.. And than do an overdub on the midi only playback, and than let Run theese playback in sync with the audio recordings.. Good luck.. I allways Need to Shift the midi recordings by 3,5 ms after the recording.. Than it fits. And that is with Offsets delays in the driver dialolg. Would be nice when the daw would do that automatically.

vinz89
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by vinz89 » Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:12 am

That dont works, the placement still will need adjustments when you drive an external mididivice..
That works fine for me... but you're right, you need to make manual adjustment to the midi track delay, that's not automatic... but you don't have to offset your midi notes on the clip...
If that doesn't work for you then there must be a problem in your audio/midi setup... maybe the midi interface of your soundcard is buggy... or, you're working at too much high latency (live doesn't compensate well latency which is too high, you must be around 10-20 ms max to get Live to compensate properly)
And on Plugins that dont works because you cant play them with monitor disabled.
With plugins, there is no problem as Live automatically compensate the latency for them (PDC) unless you're using heavy plugin's that introduce a great amount of latency (which is not the case of most VSTi's, it's more for dynamic processing plugs like EQ's...)


Cheers

simpli.cissimus
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by simpli.cissimus » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:31 pm

New Sonar X2, Cubase SX 7 and Studio One are better options these days...
More features and stability for the same or less money.
On top of that they work how promised. :mrgreen:
No! I'll never use the Push-App Live 9 !!!

Schmidi
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by Schmidi » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:58 pm

Yeah, recording hardware synths sucks for me too. PDC seems to overcompensate in my case. This sound is a very fast attack kick drum that is quantized 100% to the quarter note. it should NOT be cut off at the end of the loop as seen here.

https://www.box.com/s/qmy67zzo9llbnnpmdu04

The problem with manually adjust these is that you have to do it for EVERTHING, and you eventually lose the tight feeling of your track.

At least soft synths have gotten a lot better and I'm able to get by with them now :?

theophilus
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by theophilus » Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:09 pm

why are you adding 10ms of track delay? it looks like it's compensating too much, and now your midi notes are in front of the beat instead of behind. maybe you just need less track delay?

vinz89
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by vinz89 » Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:49 pm

Yeah,
if you have latency problems you should set negative track delay value...
setting a positive track delay value will add latency to your overall latency...

Akshara
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by Akshara » Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:23 pm

vinz89 wrote:With plugins, there is no problem as Live automatically compensate the latency for them (PDC) unless you're using heavy plugin's that introduce a great amount of latency (which is not the case of most VSTi's, it's more for dynamic processing plugs like EQ's...)
And with the exception of any tempo synced plugins inserted after any instruments or effects that introduce latency, or after any Max for Live audio or midi devices; any type of plugins or devices inserted on a send being sent to another send or channel; and any of the devices in the following list: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=177073

Just to clarify for any new people following along.

Now where is that bang-head-against-wall emoji...

DIgiDennis
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by DIgiDennis » Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:30 pm

Akshara wrote:Now where is that bang-head-against-wall emoji...
Yeah!!

Tone Deft
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by Tone Deft » Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:34 pm

Akshara wrote:
vinz89 wrote:With plugins, there is no problem as Live automatically compensate the latency for them (PDC) unless you're using heavy plugin's that introduce a great amount of latency (which is not the case of most VSTi's, it's more for dynamic processing plugs like EQ's...)
And with the exception of any tempo synced plugins inserted after any instruments or effects that introduce latency, or after any Max for Live audio or midi devices; any type of plugins or devices inserted on a send being sent to another send or channel; and any of the devices in the following list: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=177073

Just to clarify for any new people following along.

Now where is that bang-head-against-wall emoji...
perhaps an addition to your signature could be a forum post with a proper writeup on this stuff. there's the Tips and Tricks sticky as well. this is definitely a good tip to be aware of.
oddstep wrote:I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"

theophilus
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by theophilus » Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:01 pm

Akshara wrote:And with the exception of any tempo synced plugins inserted after any instruments or effects that introduce latency, or after any Max for Live audio or midi devices; any type of plugins or devices inserted on a send being sent to another send or channel; and any of the devices in the following list: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=177073

Just to clarify for any new people following along.

Now where is that bang-head-against-wall emoji...

ok, got most of that, but where did the bold part come from? you can certainly do that, as far as i know, without issues, as long as you disable the loop.

Donnie
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by Donnie » Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:07 pm

simpli.cissimus wrote:New Sonar X2, Cubase SX 7 and Studio One are better options these days...
More features and stability for the same or less money.
On top of that they work how promised. :mrgreen:
Its just give and take, there are plenty of things about those 3 programs that I think suck pretty bad too. Hell, Studio One 2 couldn't even map a transport control to MIDI when it first released. :lol:

Honestly, it seems like you don't want to use Live anyways considering every post you make is just putting it down.

Akshara
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by Akshara » Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:00 pm

theophilus wrote:
Akshara wrote:And with the exception of any tempo synced plugins inserted after any instruments or effects that introduce latency, or after any Max for Live audio or midi devices; any type of plugins or devices inserted on a send being sent to another send or channel; and any of the devices in the following list: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=177073

Just to clarify for any new people following along.

Now where is that bang-head-against-wall emoji...

ok, got most of that, but where did the bold part come from? you can certainly do that, as far as i know, without issues, as long as you disable the loop.
Direct experience? Um... not good enough? Ok, here and here.

Yes, yes... it can be avoided by disabling the sends when sending to a send. :? (Dub Nazi: very good, very good... no Dub for you!) And the returns from sends are last in the calculation cycle and will introduce an inherent delay when routing a send to an audio channel, so technically that's not a PDC problem. (Forum Chorale: So don't do that!)

So yes, I was wrong and that was an inaccurate statement. Allow me to rephrase...

PDC works on Sends routed to other Sends and Channels, as long there is no feedback loop between the Sends and Channels; and the latency of the return signal being fed into your Channel is not caused by the PDC, and is inherent to how Live calculates audio signals.

However, if you then place a tempo synced effect on a Channel that a Send is being routed to, it will cause a rift in the space time continuum, from which there can be no return.


*Edit: That second link went to the wrong place, fixed. Two notes: 1) The Send has to be deactivated even when it is turned down and not feeding a signal; 2) PDC on sends behaves just like on tracks, so they are prone to the same problems with latency and tempo synced effects, plus the added latency when being routed to a channel.

Man, someone should write a manual for all of this...
Last edited by Akshara on Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

DIgiDennis
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by DIgiDennis » Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:15 pm

pardon me for asking but, by any chance do ^^ you get paid by other parties to bring up PDC issues in most threads...just asking?

your energy and dedication is just...wauw. It must really hurt your workflow with the issuses ( yes yes I know I'm a sheep cuzz "i just dont get it" )
Last edited by DIgiDennis on Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

theophilus
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by theophilus » Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:16 pm

Akshara wrote: Direct experience? Um... not good enough? Ok, here and here.
thanks, the first one i knew about, the second one i didn't (though it is an inherent part of any mixing design like this).
However, if you then place a tempo synced effect on a Channel that a Send is being routed to, it will cause a rift in the space time continuum, from which there can be no return.
cute :)

more seriously: tempo-synced effects are probably fine (after all, we're talking 1 measly sample) BUT if you have a send routed to an audio track, and are trying to mix 'dry' send with 'wet' effected audio track, they can never mix properly (will always be 1 sample phase offset), not even if you use zero-latency plugins. this is good to know.

what's the reason to pull a send back into an audio track? really just curious... it seems that sends are pretty much equivalent to audio tracks, except you can send to them... i mean, you can even send from one send to another... automate them.. is it for further processing, and you ran out of send tracks? (maybe 12 isn't enough).

Akshara
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by Akshara » Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:35 pm

DIgiDennis wrote:pardon me for asking but, by any chance do ^^ you get paid by other parties to bring up PDC issues in most threads...just asking?

your energy and dedication is just...wauw. It must really hurt your workflow with the issuses ( yes yes I know I'm a sheep cuzz "i just dont get it" )
I'm on holiday, which I like to do when moving between projects. And have discussed this in three threads, including this one, all about PDC. This is my 348th post... in eight years. So give me a break.

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