SAMPLER: sample speeds up as pitch rises?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
re:dream
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Re: SAMPLER: sample speeds up as pitch rises?

Post by re:dream » Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:30 pm

oddstep wrote: I think that the absence of any api control over sample start and loop length are way more frustrating restrictions.
Agreed.

TomViolenz
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Re: SAMPLER: sample speeds up as pitch rises?

Post by TomViolenz » Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:36 pm

oddstep wrote:I semi sympathise. It would be good to have a button called timestretch on sampler that made duration independent of pitch... however you can do it yourself by using an lfo to move a window through the audio file at a predetermined rate and anyone witb suite 9 also has access to granulator.. which does smoother timestretching. So yes, the absence of a button is irksome and should be fixed... if only to free up an lfo. But it isn't impossible to achieve with the existing tools. I think that the absence of any api control over sample start and loop length are way more frustrating restrictions.
Well the problem is that now the extract melody feature is kind of broken because of this omission.
And +1 on the API controles. I would want to add modulation amount of the LFOs (except LFO1) and Aux envelope to that list of missing controls!

_seph
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Re: SAMPLER: sample speeds up as pitch rises?

Post by _seph » Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:22 am

it is amazing how entitled people can be...

this is how almost all samplers work, pitch is altered by changing the playback speed.

in the hardware world, all samplers worked this way. that is, until Roland released the VP-9000 which then became the V-Synth. this was the first sampler capable of treating Time, Pitch and Formant separately.

I haven't tried it, but the sampler from IRCAM the SuperVPSynth is what you're after~ http://forumnet.ircam.fr/product/ircama ... ervpsynth/

I really hope that one day this becomes a part of Sampler as it makes little sense for Sampler to be unable to do this given that "elastic audio" is such an integral part of Live.

TomViolenz
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Re: SAMPLER: sample speeds up as pitch rises?

Post by TomViolenz » Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:53 am

_seph wrote:it is amazing how entitled people can be...
Followed by:
I really hope that one day this becomes a part of Sampler as it makes little sense for Sampler to be unable to do this given that "elastic audio" is such an integral part of Live.
:roll:
Decide if having wishes is feeling entiteled for yourself....

Willyum
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Re: SAMPLER: sample speeds up as pitch rises?

Post by Willyum » Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:54 am

_seph wrote:it is amazing how entitled people can be...

this is how almost all samplers work, pitch is altered by changing the playback speed.

in the hardware world, all samplers worked this way. that is, until Roland released the VP-9000 which then became the V-Synth. this was the first sampler capable of treating Time, Pitch and Formant separately.
I can't debate if Rolands VP-9000 was the MOST advanced time stretching sampler or not, but the VP-9000 as far as I know (and correct me if I'm wrong) came out in 2000... (after the greatest decade in Hip Hop)
The time stretch craze started 12 years before that when Akai released the Akai S950 in 1988 (25 years ago). Many of the higher end Hip Hop producers (Dr.Dre, Prince Paul) were using the Akai S950 to properly tune their samples thus giving their tracks a more polished sound cause properly tuned samples felt right to the listener. I remember this cause I remember them talking about stuff like this in 'Right-On' magazine... Suddenly everybody wanted an S950. Since then most of the MPCs and many other samplers had some form of time stretch / pitch shift. The S950's range of pitch shifting was only good for about 5-6%, anything beyond that became an audio effect... Ssmmaacckk Mmyy Bbiittcchh Uupp (Fatboy Slim/The Prodigy)

So I don't agree that it would be 'entitlement' to expect that a Sampler that we paid for either as a separate device, or as part of suite is fair since this has been going on for 25 years now (and if you're correct, perfected 13 years ago). 'Simpler' might be entitlement, but not 'Sampler'!

Willyum
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Re: SAMPLER: sample speeds up as pitch rises?

Post by Willyum » Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:03 pm

Oh, not to mention... Ableton put Time Stretch / Pitch Shift in the first sampler they ever released... Impulse!
Unfortunately Impulse can't be a default for Drum Racks in a way that it makes sense to use it...

oddstep
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Re: SAMPLER: sample speeds up as pitch rises?

Post by oddstep » Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:31 pm

Willyum wrote:Oh, not to mention... Ableton put Time Stretch / Pitch Shift in the first sampler they ever ... impulse
Yeah. That is strange.

_seph
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Re: SAMPLER: sample speeds up as pitch rises?

Post by _seph » Sat Dec 14, 2013 4:39 pm

Willyum wrote:
_seph wrote:it is amazing how entitled people can be...

this is how almost all samplers work, pitch is altered by changing the playback speed.

in the hardware world, all samplers worked this way. that is, until Roland released the VP-9000 which then became the V-Synth. this was the first sampler capable of treating Time, Pitch and Formant separately.
I can't debate if Rolands VP-9000 was the MOST advanced time stretching sampler or not, but the VP-9000 as far as I know (and correct me if I'm wrong) came out in 2000... (after the greatest decade in Hip Hop)
The time stretch craze started 12 years before that when Akai released the Akai S950 in 1988 (25 years ago). Many of the higher end Hip Hop producers (Dr.Dre, Prince Paul) were using the Akai S950 to properly tune their samples thus giving their tracks a more polished sound cause properly tuned samples felt right to the listener. I remember this cause I remember them talking about stuff like this in 'Right-On' magazine... Suddenly everybody wanted an S950. Since then most of the MPCs and many other samplers had some form of time stretch / pitch shift. The S950's range of pitch shifting was only good for about 5-6%, anything beyond that became an audio effect... Ssmmaacckk Mmyy Bbiittcchh Uupp (Fatboy Slim/The Prodigy)

So I don't agree that it would be 'entitlement' to expect that a Sampler that we paid for either as a separate device, or as part of suite is fair since this has been going on for 25 years now (and if you're correct, perfected 13 years ago). 'Simpler' might be entitlement, but not 'Sampler'!
you're missing the point... the S950, along with nearly every other sampler can time stretch but the S950 (along with every other sampler) alters the playback speed in order to change the pitch. this is why multi-sampling is often necessary. that is to say that to avoid extreme distortions of the source sample as it is being played up and down the keyboard one records multiple samples at various pitches.

I never said that the VP-9000 is the most advanced time stretcher, what I said was that it was the first sampler to be able to address the issue that the OP adamdegraff is having; to be able to play a sample without it affecting the speed. the VP-9000 and the V-Synth use a technology that Roland called VariPhrase, these do not multisample but they they allow a sample to be played across the key spread without the sample being sped up or slowed down. No sampler prior to these was capable of that feat and really the only sampler since that can handle this is Elektron's Octatrack.

the time stretching techniques that you're referring to with Dre's productions are for getting loops synced and do not in any way apply to what was being asked and Ableton's warping handles that.

and TomViolenz as for my use of the word "Entitlement", Ableton have created an outstanding and ground breaking tool for making music. it is one thing to have things that you'd like to see in future versions of Live as it continues to evolve, it is another say something like this~
rob_salad wrote:For me, this is the final nail in the coffin .... In summary, today is the day I finally uninstall Ableton Live and move on to software actually designed for people making music.
and also saying something completely off-base such as this~
Willyum wrote:Ableton's Sampler is one of the only pay-for samplers on the market that doesn't have pitch shift/time stretch. It makes absolutely no sense!
Sampler can pitch shift.. if the sample root note is middle-C and you play a D, you just pitch shifted it up and Live's entire "elastic audio" sound engine is based on time streching... that is essentially what warping is and it is far more powerful than anything found in the hardware sampling world. Roland's VariPhrase and what IRCAM have done with the SuperVPSynth instrument for Live are really the only things that address what was being asked, Live's Sampler cannot do that but neither can a S950 or any other sampler, but I suppose you could say that Camel Audio's Alchemy get's close albeit in a roundabout way.

TomViolenz
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Re: SAMPLER: sample speeds up as pitch rises?

Post by TomViolenz » Sat Dec 14, 2013 6:40 pm

We all express our wishes differently I guess, but I find the word entitelment has that bad connotation of a spoiled child. And as was pointed out, I don't think it is applicable for a product you bought (for not too little money I might add).
Besides, I don't know how long you already use Sampler, but it's development seems to lie dormant for a long time now, and since it is great, but not close enough to perfect, I too find that a little maddening.

As for the "I stop using Live now", it's his choice to blow more than 500 bucks, no?!

yur2die4
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Re: SAMPLER: sample speeds up as pitch rises?

Post by yur2die4 » Sat Dec 14, 2013 7:16 pm

Sampler is Sampler.

If they wanted time stretch in a sampling instrument, they'd have to do so in an entirely new sampling device.

And I think they should do that. Instead of feeling obligated to mess up Sampler.

Then, a. Sampler's features description can be retained and it can function as it does normally without a bunch of new troubleshooting and development to force it to have new trucks yet conform to old applications.

b. It really opens up the free space for the potential of a sampling instrument INTENDED to take on such tasks. And it'd be great to be able to make that it's main feature, in the description.

But in the meantime, people should really understand What Sampler is, and not make any assumptions. This is not the fault of Ableton, they do not advertise it as a feature.

I sound like such an Ableton fanboy :P. I'm really just hopeful, and think that this would be the most realistic solution to their problem.

TomViolenz
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Re: SAMPLER: sample speeds up as pitch rises?

Post by TomViolenz » Sat Dec 14, 2013 7:36 pm

yur2die4 wrote:Sampler is Sampler.

If they wanted time stretch in a sampling instrument, they'd have to do so in an entirely new sampling device.

And I think they should do that. Instead of feeling obligated to mess up Sampler.

Then, a. Sampler's features description can be retained and it can function as it does normally without a bunch of new troubleshooting and development to force it to have new trucks yet conform to old applications.

b. It really opens up the free space for the potential of a sampling instrument INTENDED to take on such tasks. And it'd be great to be able to make that it's main feature, in the description.

But in the meantime, people should really understand What Sampler is, and not make any assumptions. This is not the fault of Ableton, they do not advertise it as a feature.

I sound like such an Ableton fanboy :P. I'm really just hopeful, and think that this would be the most realistic solution to their problem.
I'm just worried that they don't see it as a problem :|

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