Progressive Trance Questions

[Andreilg3]

Hey I am a progressive trance producer and I have come across a few mixing obstacles that I would really appreciate some advice on.

1. My snare is centered in my track but it is about 1db louder on the left side than the right (according to ableton's meter). I tried making it mono, which fixed the meter issue but it sounded awful and way too "centered" at that point. Is it bad that the snare is louder on the left or does it really not matter? The best option I have tried is using Sonalksis Stereo Enhancer and lowering the db on the left side so now they are even and sound about the same but honestly my ears are dead after producing all day so I can't tell anymore.

2. My track is in the key of d minor but my snare is tuned to (d in the lows) primarily B. It sounds far better in the mix as a B than the alternative which is A, but I am sure that is for a lot more reasons than pitch. Does this mean though that being "technically" out of key is always wrong for percussion or is it being considered d melodic minor where the B is acceptable? I have also noticed for some reason that B-flat sounds awful in my track but I can't seem to figure out why, the only B-flat I have going that doesn't sound terrible is in this bass.

3. If my bass has a B-flat and thus is in d natural/harmonic minor, does this make it out of tune if it is playing at the same time as something that is playing (or percussion tuned) in the key of d melodic minor or can two different minor keys be simultaneously played?

4. Should I be putting mono below 120hz-200hz on mostly everything or is that just a vinyl thing. Also frankly if I should be making everything mono below a certain point wouldn't the mastering engineer just do that for me? (and wouldn't this mean that I should just leave it stereo the way it is now?)

5. What's the general amount of db that a snare should be below the kick (assuming the kick is sitting on 0db)

6. Do you guys know of any filter/eq vsts that don't raise db when filtering? Fabfilter Pro-Q seems to be clipping my initially 0dB tracks.

Thanks so much to anybody that takes the time to read and answer.

[MPGK]

Hello,

First off, don't overthink these things. Let your track rest for a day and revisit it with fresh ears. That alone will help a lot.

1. My snare is centered in my track but it is about 1db louder on the left side than the right (according to ableton's meter). I tried making it mono, which fixed the meter issue but it sounded awful and way too "centered" at that point. Is it bad that the snare is louder on the left or does it really not matter? The best option I have tried is using Sonalksis Stereo Enhancer and lowering the db on the left side so now they are even and sound about the same but honestly my ears are dead after producing all day so I can't tell anymore.

There's no problem with a snare being a little bit off center. You can try using Live's Utility to give the snare less width, but if the track just works better with the snare panned a bit, why not leave it that way?

2. My track is in the key of d minor but my snare is tuned to (d in the lows) primarily B. It sounds far better in the mix as a B than the alternative which is A, but I am sure that is for a lot more reasons than pitch. Does this mean though that being "technically" out of key is always wrong for percussion or is it being considered d melodic minor where the B is acceptable? I have also noticed for some reason that B-flat sounds awful in my track but I can't seem to figure out why, the only B-flat I have going that doesn't sound terrible is in this bass.

Trust your ears and not the scales! While a snare can have a certain basic pitch, it's mostly a percussive sound that doesn't have to be perfectly in tune with the rest. In fact, if you had everything booming around 73 / 146 / 293 Hz, your song would sound a lot less full / it would be harder to get an even mix. This is especially true for tuning the low end of the kick to the bass line.
Regarding the Bb not sounding good - Bb is the b13 in minor and classically regarded the avoid note as well as the characteristic note of the scale. It creates a b9 with the 5 of the tonic (5/A - b13/Bb), which results in tension. Tension can be a bad thing as well as a good thing. Again: trust your ears!

3. If my bass has a B-flat and thus is in d natural/harmonic minor, does this make it out of tune if it is playing at the same time as something that is playing (or percussion tuned) in the key of d melodic minor or can two different minor keys be simultaneously played?

The three minor scales (natural, harmonic, melodic) are just three sides of one and the same thing. Minor is minor is minor. "Natural minor" is the neutral state of minor, "Harmonic minor" describes the occurence of a major 3 in the dominant chord (in the case of D minor, it's A7, with a C#!) and "Melodic minor" describes the habit of using a 13 instead of a b13 to avoid an augmented second interval between the b13 and the 7 (Bb - C# becomes B - C#). It does become a bit more complicated if you play jazz. Anyway...
...Here's the thing: most electro and pop music isn't in minor at all because there is no real dominant chord (again, A7 with the C#!).
Most electro tracks that people consider minor are actually modal: Aeolian (which has the same notes as "natural minor") or Dorian (which has the same notes as "natural minor" with a 13 instead of a b13) or a mix of anything. Who said you have to use one scale throughout the whole song? Now don't say "Progressive Trance conventions"...

4. Should I be putting mono below 120hz-200hz on mostly everything or is that just a vinyl thing. Also frankly if I should be making everything mono below a certain point wouldn't the mastering engineer just do that for me? (and wouldn't this mean that I should just leave it stereo the way it is now?)

Don't go putting a frequency splitter on the master and trying to artificially narrow your track. Leave things like that to the mastering guy if you're intending to employ one. Just don't pan any "whoom" to the sides too much and try to keep kick and bass centered for most of the time and you'll be fine.

5. What's the general amount of db that a snare should be below the kick (assuming the kick is sitting on 0db)

Sorry, no general rule there! (at least, none that I knew of)
The right mix depends on so many things, how could there be a rule?

6. Do you guys know of any filter/eq vsts that don't raise db when filtering? Fabfilter Pro-Q seems to be clipping my initially 0dB tracks.

Most EQs (like Live's EQ8) have a gain instance. I always try to keep some headroom with everything, so if you're working with a loop/sample/whatever that's already really hot, slam a Utility on there and lower it a few dB before EQ / compression / whatevs!

Why don't you share your music, by the way? Much easier to help if we can actually listen to what you're doing.

Cheers,
Moritz

[Andreilg3]

Thanks a lot for taking your time to reply.

1. I agree, I was just wondering. But actually I was talking more about pan rather than width, the width I actually increased since the snare was a little too narrow but I think I managed to find a nice balance.

2. Ugh idk about that, subtle harmonic resonances matter more than any human can put into words and frankly I'm very biased towards my own music so my own ears, even after rest, aren't the best judges for subtle thigns like that. I don't understand what you mean by b13. Bb is apart of d natural/harmonic minor, that was what i was saying.

3. Again no idea what you mean by 13 and I know what harmonic and melodic mean, I already defined them. I know pop and electro aren't in minor, that's why I don't make that music, it isn't seriously composed for the most part, I make trance which is most commonly in minor and I never said I had to use one scale...i was asking if I can be playing two seperate "scales" at once...these scales being natural/harmonic/melodic of the same minor. No offense but you are just defining the basics instead of answering the question.

4. Ok thanks

5. I just meant what would be the recommend difference, the kick and snare are the two defining rhythmic forces of any dance track so I assumed there was an accepted db relationship.

6. I could do that but wouldn't doing that essentially kill the point of wanting a loud mix? Not to mention that the dB only peaks at certain points and it peaks a lot, like 3dB, so I think worst comes to worst I'll just put a limiter on it at 0db.

http://soundcloud.com/decebal-official/drums/s-0xfPT here are the drums I've got going, everything except the snare is sampled from another track. The snare I've been working on a lot trying to get it to sound right, this is as close as I can get so far. Thanks again for your help.

[MPGK]

I don't understand what you mean by b13. Bb is apart of d natural/harmonic minor, that was what i was saying.

You can see every note in a scale as part of a big stack of thirds. That's why Bb is the b13 and B is the 13 of D.
Natural Minor / Aeolian: D - E - F - G - A - Bb - C == 1 - 9 - b3 - 5 - b13 - 7
Harmonic Minor: D - E - F - G - A - Bb - C# == 1 - 9 - b3 - 5 - b13 - maj7
Melodic Minor: D - E - F - G - A - B - C# == 1 - 9 - b3 - 5 - 13 - maj7

3. Again no idea what you mean by 13 and I know what harmonic and melodic mean, I already defined them. I know pop and electro aren't in minor, that's why I don't make that music, it isn't seriously composed for the most part, I make trance which is most commonly in minor and I never said I had to use one scale...i was asking if I can be playing two seperate "scales" at once...these scales being natural/harmonic/melodic of the same minor. No offense but you are just defining the basics instead of answering the question.

I'm sorry man. Didn't mean to be condescending. But defining something and understanding it are two entirely different steps, and I'm still not sure if you're getting what I'm trying to say.
Let me try to answer that question again: Natural, harmonic and melodic minor are all artificially constructed things that relate to one and the same "thing" that is minor. It really depends on where exactly you are in the song or even from what angle you're looking at it. "Harmonic" is just away to describe the dominant chord phenomenon, "Melodic" is a way of bridging the gap between b13 and maj7 (see above).
So the conclusion is: You can use everything how you like it as long as it sounds good. It really is that obvious. You can even have a b13 and a 13 at the same time provided one of them is part of a moving melody or a percussive element that our ears don't even notice as a concrete pitch. Don't get your brain in a knot about this. You can't tune the snare to every note that comes with it, especially in trance music which has a lot of melody. (I'd still call it electro/pop though.)
If you're really interested in the topic of music theory, get a good book about it or, better yet, a teacher. There's much more to it than just picking notes from a certain scale. On the contrary, it's actually the other way around: you make music with your ears and then you use the scales to reflect. Why people are always so crazy about scales and how to apply them properly is beyond me. That's not how you make music, that's how you make your tax declaration.

5. I just meant what would be the recommend difference, the kick and snare are the two defining rhythmic forces of any dance track so I assumed there was an accepted db relationship.

Nope! There's a lot of physics stuff determining perceived loudness other than dB, so even if a rule like that made sense, it wouldn't be applicable.

6. I could do that but wouldn't doing that essentially kill the point of wanting a loud mix? Not to mention that the dB only peaks at certain points and it peaks a lot, like 3dB, so I think worst comes to worst I'll just put a limiter on it at 0db.

When you hand the finished track to a mastering engineer, he'll ask you for some dB headroom anyway. You can always turn things louder, don't let that be your first concern when arranging the track. A trance track does normally have healthy kick peaks, that's normal. Try to get the mix of everything right by choosing good sounds and adjusting their relative values before doing anything with the master bus.

http://soundcloud.com/decebal-official/drums/s-0xfPT here are the drums I've got going, everything except the snare is sampled from another track. The snare I've been working on a lot trying to get it to sound right, this is as close as I can get so far. Thanks again for your help.

You're welcome. Your link doesn't work though.

Cheers,
Moritz

[Andreilg3]

1. Ok, why not just call it by the letter name instead of confusing numbers?

3. Again you are just repeating yourself...I go to music college and am getting my bachelor's in music composition, I understand all of this, the question was whether or not in orchestration such as trance, playing different keys of natural minor at once was a valid option. I don't agree with "if it sounds correct" because that goes under the assumption that my ears are perfect or I have perfect taste, there are people out there listening to wall noise and skrillex so I am keen on learning what is mathematically correct before going into the "likes and do not likes". but whatever forget I asked this question. And I really resent calling it electro or pop...that's like calling classical music rap or reggae. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-Mf3zAGNJc isn't electro or "pop" in the slightest.

5. Ok thanks, yea I know freq masking matters a lot more, is there a way to deduce perceived loudness? I believe I heard something about replaygain doing that.

6. OK will do

Thanks again man, http://soundcloud.com/decebal-official/drums/s-M3vXc try this link

[MPGK]

1. Ok, why not just call it by the letter name instead of confusing numbers?

Because it's easier to think of abstract intervals - especially when you compose your next tune in a different key.
I could of course say Bb is the avoid note in D natural minor / aeolian, but saying b13 is the avoid note in any aeolian scale contains much more information.

3. Again you are just repeating yourself...I go to music college and am getting my bachelor's in music composition

Geez, sorry - but what are you learning over there if not basic harmonic theory, i.e. proper naming for tensions like "b13"?

I understand all of this, the question was whether or not in orchestration such as trance, playing different keys of natural minor at once was a valid option. I don't agree with "if it sounds correct" because that goes under the assumption that my ears are perfect or I have perfect taste, there are people out there listening to wall noise and skrillex so I am keen on learning what is mathematically correct before going into the "likes and do not likes". but whatever forget I asked this question.

There is no "mathematically correct" in music (except if you're trying your hand at being the next John Cage, Stockhausen or Schönberg). There are ways to reflect on music using math, yes - and there are certain conventions (like the avoid notes). But you seem to be looking for ways to narrow down what notes you want to play so you can just pick them out. That just doesn't make any sense. Play what notes you like (= what notes you hear) and if something sounds weird or out of place, try to analyze why it does. And if something sounds particularly awesome, reflect on what you did there. This way is much more fun and will result in music that "lives" and doesn't sound constructed, bland, narrow-minded, boring...

And I really resent calling it electro or pop...that's like calling classical music rap or reggae. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-Mf3zAGNJc isn't electro or "pop" in the slightest.

Well, that's just calling things things. Some would argue that Progressive Trance is Electro because the sounds have mostly electronic sources. Some would argue it's Pop because it's popular and produced for places where people go dancing. It's definitely not the same as calling Classical music Rap or Reggae, in that case there's no name relation at all. I get what you're saying though, it's not David Guetta.

5. Ok thanks, yea I know freq masking matters a lot more, is there a way to deduce perceived loudness? I believe I heard something about replaygain doing that.

Yes, people have tried deducting ways to generalize all the psychoacoustic stuff going on when we listen to tracks... I don't think much of it. The ears should always be the last instance!
If you're really interested in the topic, get ready to grab some physics books - or at least Bob Katz' "Mastering Audio".

Thanks again man, http://soundcloud.com/decebal-official/drums/s-M3vXc try this link

No problem, glad to help! The beat's pretty tight, I'd love to hear what all the other instruments do though!

Cheers,
Moritz

[Andreilg3]

3. haven't taken harmony classes yet, but even if I did I really doubt they'd care about percussion involved in harmony

The problem is percussive "harmony" is too subtle to tell the difference unless I change whole octaves so I don't see how I can use my ears when it all sounds just as "good", and I realized asking other people is even more pointless since they can't tell the difference between any pitches or even if stuff is out of key.

that's idiotic, none of that is what any of those genre means and trance is far from popular...Everybody I know considers my music "hipster" because it isn't being played on mtv u. Electro does not mean using electronic sounds, if you said electronica then yes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro_house and pop doesn't mean it is played where people dance, pop means music made with the intention of having mass appeal and becoming popular http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pop_music. Trance derives from Jean Michelle Jarre, Vangellis, and Tangerine Dream as well as classical music and techno http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trance_music.

5. ok ill look into it

here is a really rough draft of my intro http://soundcloud.com/decebal-official/ ... ue/s-PVbIi, let me know what you think (can't tell if I should change the bass notes to match the melodies better or not)

[oddstep]

i think that if you've got a monitoring set up that you trust or understand, then your ears are a better judge than any compliance to music theory. a lot of instruments - snares in particular, are so loaded with atonal harmonics, that what are you actually tuning when you tune a snare. if it sounds in tune then it is in tune. we're not making music for audio to midi translation software, we are making music for people like ourselves that we want to share feelings and ideas with. if the difference is imperceptible its irrelevant.
steve reich is all about harmonic structures evolving out of percussive counterpoint. gamelan rests on this idea.edit: so people should care about harmonic structures in percussion - to not care is to miss out on the fun.

[MPGK]

that's idiotic, none of that is what any of those genre means and trance is far from popular...Everybody I know considers my music "hipster" because it isn't being played on mtv u. Electro does not mean using electronic sounds, if you said electronica then yes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro_house and pop doesn't mean it is played where people dance, pop means music made with the intention of having mass appeal and becoming popular http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pop_music. Trance derives from Jean Michelle Jarre, Vangellis, and Tangerine Dream as well as classical music and techno http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trance_music.

Well, like I said: what's in a name? But yea, Trance was very popular at a time, at least here in Europe. There were and still are definitely a lot of people who produce it with the intention of having mass appeal, at least to the party crowds in the club. Regarding the difference between Electro and Electronica, all I can say is "pffffft".

here is a really rough draft of my intro http://soundcloud.com/decebal-official/ ... ue/s-PVbIi, let me know what you think (can't tell if I should change the bass notes to match the melodies better or not)

Sounds cool and clean. I didn't notice anything off. The snare sits good with the mix. Carry on!

i think that if you've got a monitoring set up that you trust or understand, then your ears are a better judge than any compliance to music theory. a lot of instruments - snares in particular, are so loaded with atonal harmonics, that what are you actually tuning when you tune a snare. if it sounds in tune then it is in tune. we're not making music for audio to midi translation software, we are making music for people like ourselves that we want to share feelings and ideas with. if the difference is imperceptible its irrelevant.

Seconded!

I know it's a different genre, but consider an awesome rock band playing live. Do they re-tune the snares and toms for every song? Nope. Do they still sound awesome? Yup.

steve reich is all about harmonic structures evolving out of percussive counterpoint. gamelan rests on this idea.edit: so people should care about harmonic structures in percussion - to not care is to miss out on the fun.

It's definitely something worth looking into - but nothing you should get hung up about. Gamelan instruments all produce pretty definite pitches - snares usually don't (it's more difficult with 808s & co., but the snappy snares found in most Trance just need to sit in the mix).

And what Reich works are you referring to, "Drumming"? He did a lot of stuff that's very unrelated to the topic - on the contrary, most of his work is considered aleatoric (like "Pendulum Music" or "It's Gonna Rain") and/or just plain minimalistic (like "Clapping Music") with no regards to tuned percussion at all. One could say that ignoring all the complexity of arranging and fine-tuning - instead focussing on simple rhythms and uncontrolled sound experiments - is the very core of his creations.

Cheers,
Moritz

[infernal.machine]

Lol'ing at someone going to music college that doesn't know what a flat 13 is.

Hahahahahaaa holy crap.

[Andreilg3]

Lol'ing at someone going to music college that doesn't know what a flat 13 is.

Hahahahahaaa holy crap.

it's called being a first year, but that comment must've made you feel great about yourself

As to the rest of you, thanks for taking the time to answer everything guys. I understand a lot more now and it helped me fix a lot of issues. Hope a lot of people learned from these questions as well

[beatmunga]

Glad you got somewhere on this Andrei but please - chill out a bit about Pop music. Of course the Trance you listen to is Pop. It is not remotely avant garde. You should be proud of that. Snobbery has no place in dance music - it either works with people who want a good night out or it doesn't.

And the term Electro is much older than Electro House. Electro Funk and, yes, Electro Pop are 2 much earlier uses of the term. in both cases Electro is short for Electronic.

And the music you love will always owe more to Black American beatmakers than to White European keyboard wizards.

[Andreilg3]

Glad you got somewhere on this Andrei but please - chill out a bit about Pop music. Of course the Trance you listen to is Pop. It is not remotely avant garde. You should be proud of that. Snobbery has no place in dance music - it either works with people who want a good night out or it doesn't.

And the term Electro is much older than Electro House. Electro Funk and, yes, Electro Pop are 2 much earlier uses of the term. in both cases Electro is short for Electronic.

And the music you love will always owe more to Black American beatmakers than to White European keyboard wizards.

all of that is false other than the Electro part which is nowadays very commonly used to stand for electro house, which i thought you meant...Either way saying that my music isn't pop isn't snobbery, it just isn't and other than house influence it owes nothing to black beatmakers. It was born in france and germany from classically trained artists http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cnt4UVA_sS8. I don't hear any black influence in there other than percussion. I don't make trance for druggies at clubs nor do i listen to it while on drugs or at clubs, it is music just like classical and deserves appreciation past simplifying it to the fact that it has drums...Listen to ambient music, that is trance's drumless brother. It's more music than it is "dance", not to mention vivaldi and mozart used to compose for people to dance, yet it wasn't all simplified to that one derogatory concept.

[Andreilg3]

double posted, sry

[beatmunga]

Glad you got somewhere on this Andrei but please - chill out a bit about Pop music. Of course the Trance you listen to is Pop. It is not remotely avant garde. You should be proud of that. Snobbery has no place in dance music - it either works with people who want a good night out or it doesn't.

And the term Electro is much older than Electro House. Electro Funk and, yes, Electro Pop are 2 much earlier uses of the term. in both cases Electro is short for Electronic.

And the music you love will always owe more to Black American beatmakers than to White European keyboard wizards.

all of that is false other than the Electro part which is nowadays very commonly used to stand for electro house, which i thought you meant...Either way saying that my music isn't pop isn't snobbery, it just isn't and other than house influence it owes nothing to black beatmakers. It was born in france and germany from classically trained artists http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cnt4UVA_sS8. I don't hear any black influence in there other than percussion. I don't make trance for druggies at clubs nor do i listen to it while on drugs or at clubs, it is music just like classical and deserves appreciation past simplifying it to the fact that it has drums...Listen to ambient music, that is trance's drumless brother. It's more music than it is "dance", not to mention vivaldi and mozart used to compose for people to dance, yet it wasn't all simplified to that one derogatory concept.

this is getting increasingly uncomfortable...

Don't really know where to start. Best of luck, Andrei - I think you're going to need it for a few years yet...