Is Ableton really for Electronic Musicians?

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
beatmunga
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Re: Is Ableton really for Electronic Musicians?

Post by beatmunga » Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:25 pm

beats me wrote: You’re missing the point. A talented music producer isn’t also a talented musician by default. There’s plenty of music out there where 90% of the quality of the song is the production and if you were to play an unplugged version of the song on nothing but a piano it would sound primitive and laughable.
Thing is beats, the definition of 'musician' maybe isn't just restricted to 'instrumentalist' or 'one who composes for instrumentalists' any more, for better or worse.
mendeldrive wrote:NOBODY designs their own sounds... There is ZERO point in reinventing the wheel.

beats me
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Re: Is Ableton really for Electronic Musicians?

Post by beats me » Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:12 pm

beatmunga wrote:
beats me wrote: You’re missing the point. A talented music producer isn’t also a talented musician by default. There’s plenty of music out there where 90% of the quality of the song is the production and if you were to play an unplugged version of the song on nothing but a piano it would sound primitive and laughable.
Thing is beats, the definition of 'musician' maybe isn't just restricted to 'instrumentalist' or 'one who composes for instrumentalists' any more, for better or worse.

That’s going down the rabbit hole of what is somebody who performs their music using controllers with a program like Live. Have they reached the definition of musician yet?

I’d say within that group there is a really small percentage of performers who are performing on the level of a live musician with a traditional instrument and are still relying heavily on the computer to keep things going and presentable, very little danger or freestyle involved.

kent_sandvik
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Re: Is Ableton really for Electronic Musicians?

Post by kent_sandvik » Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:40 pm

My first criteria of a musician is someone who could perform without the need of a fixed tempo, click, midi sync and so on. If you pull that off, then you are closer to being called a musician.

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Re: Is Ableton really for Electronic Musicians?

Post by kevwestbeats » Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:42 pm

I always thought of a musician as someone who makes music regardless of how they do it.
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beats me
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Re: Is Ableton really for Electronic Musicians?

Post by beats me » Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:51 pm

kevwestbeats wrote:I always thought of a musician as someone who makes music regardless of how they do it.

Would you call the guy who paints your house an architect?

kent_sandvik
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Re: Is Ableton really for Electronic Musicians?

Post by kent_sandvik » Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:59 pm

This actually reminds me of when long time ago my seven year old son did a techno album using Ableton Live with no whatsoever skills playing a keyboard... Opened up my eyes. It was all based on music pattern recognition. I would not call that being a musician, but that's just me.

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Re: Is Ableton really for Electronic Musicians?

Post by beats me » Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:00 pm

If I’m having a conversation with somebody about my music and they throw the term musician into the mix I’m the first to correct them and tell them I compose or produce music.

If you think you’re a musician then ask yourself this question. Could you go out and join a band without the aid of a computer or hardware sequencing device?

andydes
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Re: Is Ableton really for Electronic Musicians?

Post by andydes » Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:10 pm

Oh Lord, we're on the "what is music?" now are we?

As far as I'm concerned it's just semantics. Does it mean anyone's less talented? I don't think anyone here is daft enough to say "it's easy, you just push buttons".

Are they?

beatmunga
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Re: Is Ableton really for Electronic Musicians?

Post by beatmunga » Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:33 pm

beats me wrote:If I’m having a conversation with somebody about my music and they throw the term musician into the mix I’m the first to correct them and tell them I compose or produce music.

If you think you’re a musician then ask yourself this question. Could you go out and join a band without the aid of a computer or hardware sequencing device?
Again the emphasis on live performance. Was Mahler a musician? Couldn't play an instrument well, apparently.

Much as I find it lazy, I couldn't help myself - Wikepedia says that someone who creates music comes under the term musician:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musician

Including composers. If some music that people identify as music exists because your brain willed it into existence, are you a musician? I would say so generally. Especially if a little knowledge and an ear for rhythm and harmony are involved. Can someone who is quadraplegic and unable to play an instrument compose music? Of course they can with the wonders of modern music technology.

Having said that, 'willing music into existence' could be used to describe old school record producers, who 'got music made' without coming up with a single beat or motif.... not sure if they are musicians, or their equivalent in modern electronic terms either...

Interesting discussion.
mendeldrive wrote:NOBODY designs their own sounds... There is ZERO point in reinventing the wheel.

NITEPPL
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Re: Is Ableton really for Electronic Musicians?

Post by NITEPPL » Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:52 pm

For me Ableton is all about workflow, it's just really really fast, which is why I use it to hit deadlines and just as an overall utility. The sampling in Ableton is also really second to none right now, just the warp time is so conducive to what I do, but if you don't have the right plugins I'd say for orchestral stuff Logic might be a better direction for you just because, totally just my personal preference, but I really prefer the string writing/notation capabilities in Logic, also it's a lot easier to use video, and the Spacedesigner reverb really knocks it pit of the park for strings, especially when bussed with the pre-fader setting. That being said, some of the plugins stock in Ableton like Operator are professional grade synthesizers and kick major bass. For rock it's really a mixed bag for whatever type of thing you have going on, recording in Live is super easy and convenient you just have to make sure you set stuff to mono/stereo accordingly, but I'm not a huge fan of Amp if you're recording dry.

simmerdown
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Re: Is Ableton really for Electronic Musicians?

Post by simmerdown » Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:43 pm

the computer is an instrument

someone who makes music is a musician, composer, or producer, whatever you feel most comfortable with

traditional vs. virtual instruments is a longsince moot distinction, perpetuated by traditionalists who feel threatened, or some sense of superiority

(i put at least 1/2 of my time into a 'real' instrument btw)

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Re: Is Ableton really for Electronic Musicians?

Post by kevwestbeats » Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:58 pm

beats me wrote:
kevwestbeats wrote:I always thought of a musician as someone who makes music regardless of how they do it.

Would you call the guy who paints your house an architect?
that's ridiculous not even sure why you would ask such a silly question. might as well ask would I call water a brick.
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Re: Is Ableton really for Electronic Musicians?

Post by kevwestbeats » Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:00 pm

kent_sandvik wrote:This actually reminds me of when long time ago my seven year old son did a techno album using Ableton Live with no whatsoever skills playing a keyboard... Opened up my eyes. It was all based on music pattern recognition. I would not call that being a musician, but that's just me.
why not? did he or did he not make the music? I think people over think the definition of the term musician. just like when people say that someone who plays a synth isn't a real musician because a synth is not a real instrument yet when you look at a synth it looks just like a piano and plays like one outside of the feeling of the keys and the obvious differences like the synth parameters that a piano obviously would not have.
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infernal.machine
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Re: Is Ableton really for Electronic Musicians?

Post by infernal.machine » Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:28 pm

I would say that people who produce music are musicians. Most of the time, they are not 'good' musicians and are better at production, but that's sort of an arbitrary boundary anyways.

Just cause you give someone a guitar and they pluck a string, that doesn't make them a musician. And if someone doesn't know music theory, but can play some really heartwrenching simple stuff, that doesn't make them NOT a musician.

We're lucky these days to have the choice to focus on whatever we want. It's a balance between live playing and production/mixing/mastering. I think where people get mad is when the slant is 99% toward the production side, and not enough live playing.

beats me
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Re: Is Ableton really for Electronic Musicians?

Post by beats me » Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:22 pm

It’s easy for us to chin stroke on here about what a musician is but I doubt somebody who composes mostly computer driven Minimal Tech House can confidently run up to the Yo Yo Mas and Eddie Van Halens of the world and go “I’m a musician too, bro. It says so in Wikipedia!” And the average man on the street isn’t going to go by Wikipedia’s broad stroke definition either.

Most well established successful producers who aren’t musicians don’t claim to be and they’re fine with that. It seems to be the little guys who get bent when what they do doesn’t fall under the musician umbrella.

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