Ableton & Logic sound (yes I know...)

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
reeloy
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Re: Ableton & Logic sound (yes I know...)

Post by reeloy » Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:45 pm

.....no.

i can't really explain technically what harrisson mixbus is doin' better, when it comes to summing....

to be honest, it's pretty magic and tricky, but it works..... :wink:

i was summing for years in logic and never mind......
but once i imported a complete audio track plan into mixbus and took it from there, i could'nt believe my ears...
but to make the difference really obvious and "visible" you need at least some accoustic elements in your track....
the eq's and channelcompressors have fixed ranges and defaults for each channel type......
so it's a different deal on single strips, summing busses and even again on the master channel....

and the all over headrooms and the handling are really like an old desk......this peace of software you really can drive "hot".......so to say......
for under hundered bucks, it's still kind of a miracle what they did there and i'm till waiting for the day, when, after all this rock solid beta thing, they come up with a plug in doin' the same job and it costs a fortune...

and for summing at all....
well, there is a reason for all this summing prozessors, analog AND digital, showing up in the last years....
real summing is not just adding the single levels....
it's also keep them in line with some db law....32bit float internal accuracy leaves lot's of room for interpretation...

but hey, in general we're talking 'bout electronic music here....
and all this music ends up on some ghettoblasters, club pa's or in most cases on some shitty ear plugs....
and all daw's summing processing can cope with that....

ze2be
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Re: Ableton & Logic sound (yes I know...)

Post by ze2be » Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:41 pm

reeloy wrote:an audio engine that is capable to stretch and pitch in realtime can't be that clean as one that is just playing and recording audio.....
I think what you mean to say is: using stretch and pitch algorithms in a daw, any daw, degrades the sound. If you dont use the stretch technology, or use any other function that alter the sound, it will sound exactly the same in all the major daws.

( I see a lot of "barking up the wrong trees" in this forum. )

ze2be
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Re: Ableton & Logic sound (yes I know...)

Post by ze2be » Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:54 pm

reeloy wrote:if you're a serious recording and perfoming artist you'll never work with ONE daw.....
Oh crap! :( So you say that since I have only used Live during the most succsessful last years of my music career, releasing loads of tracks, performing for clubs and huge venues world wide, and get great pay too, im not serious?

Dont smoke your socks dude.

IronShirt
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Re: Ableton & Logic sound (yes I know...)

Post by IronShirt » Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:16 pm

For me I'll finsih a track in Pro Tools or Harrison Mixbuss,high headroom summing.

Not to mention McDsp plugins for Pro Tools is the sex for mixdown.

Szuumm
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Re: Ableton & Logic sound (yes I know...)

Post by Szuumm » Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:55 pm

I think the OP has demonstrated the most common cause of sound quality issues in Live - not reading the manual, not doing proper a/b testing, user error...

reeloy
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Re: Ableton & Logic sound (yes I know...)

Post by reeloy » Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:55 pm

......oho, of course you can use only ONE daw....

but if You have a look around, usually this is not the case....
and if you get along with live only and get paid well....hey, congrats and fine with me....

i defintly can't do a movie score in ableton.
and you won't find anybody doin' so.....

but even for that, ableton can do a good job........but not all the way.

and it's a fact that most producers using ableton, don't do the finish with it.....

even if it's "only" clubmusic....but as i said, for electronic music you can hardly tell any difference.....
and there's no real need to think about it......

and yes.....once all timestretch algos and stuff are offline, they DO ALL sound pretty much the same.....
er, apart from summing.....

but without realtime stetch and pitch, ableton is not ableton anymore.....
first two years, when the audio quality of live was really worse, i loved that crap sound big time.....
the granular dirt shigger sounded so fresh in those days......

leisuremuffin
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Re: Ableton & Logic sound (yes I know...)

Post by leisuremuffin » Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:32 pm

i'd be willing to bet a considerable amount of money that not one person who argues that there are differences between DAW's summing busses could pick them out in a blind listening test.

reeloy wrote: and yes.....once all timestretch algos and stuff are offline, they DO ALL sound pretty much the same.....
er, apart from summing.....
TimeableFloat ???S?e?n?d?I?n?f?o

Tarekith
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Re: Ableton & Logic sound (yes I know...)

Post by Tarekith » Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:21 am

leisuremuffin wrote:i'd be willing to bet a considerable amount of money that not one person who argues that there are differences between DAW's summing busses could pick them out in a blind listening test.
+1

:mrgreen:
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Slightlydelic
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Re: Ableton & Logic sound (yes I know...)

Post by Slightlydelic » Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:18 am

i bought logic last week and loving it so far, just wish i had jumped on it sooner. cant say anything about the sound quality issue (must be my ears) but im impressed with instruments fx and content so far, and the work flow is awesome.

crumhorn
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Re: Ableton & Logic sound (yes I know...)

Post by crumhorn » Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:15 pm

If you think your hearing is reliable then watch this -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-lN8vWm3m0
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Goddard
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Re: Ableton & Logic sound (yes I know...)

Post by Goddard » Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:47 pm

Create a three tracks (MIDI) project using third party plug ins.
Using NI Komplete: first track Battery with some beat, second one Massive with the bass and third Absynth with pad chords.
Bounce them to 96/24 files in Logic and export them to the same format audio files in Live (neither dithering nor warping applied).
You may as well try bouncing in realtime (in Logic) and use resampling (in Live) for better effect.
Compare final audio files in some external sample editor i.e. Soundtrack Pro.
Tell me that you don't hear the difference... and why?
Skål!
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beats me
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Re: Ableton & Logic sound (yes I know...)

Post by beats me » Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:58 pm

In simplest terms.

With Live you really have to know what you’re doing.

With Logic you really don’t (for the most part).

Great tracks can come out of either but with Live you’re just going to have to put out more effort in micromanaging.

kent_sandvik
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Re: Ableton & Logic sound (yes I know...)

Post by kent_sandvik » Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:01 pm

If I will record any pristine synthesizer music style Vangelis, Logic is the way to go. If the track elements are lo-fi and otherwise a dirty and a non-clean production, Live is fine for that. *)

*) The whole idea with Live is clip synchronization, i.e. warping and warping always introduces artifacts. As for pure midi editing, Live's MIDI editing tools are dismal compared with other DAWs.

Tone Deft
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Re: Ableton & Logic sound (yes I know...)

Post by Tone Deft » Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:08 pm

kent_sandvik wrote:If I will record any pristine synthesizer music style Vangelis, Logic is the way to go. If the track elements are lo-fi and otherwise a dirty and a non-clean production, Live is fine for that. *)

*) The whole idea with Live is clip synchronization, i.e. warping and warping always introduces artifacts. As for pure midi editing, Live's MIDI editing tools are dismal compared with other DAWs.
so turn warp off.

btw Logic and Live use the same warp engine. 8O
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At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
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kent_sandvik
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Re: Ableton & Logic sound (yes I know...)

Post by kent_sandvik » Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:11 pm

Tone Deft wrote:
kent_sandvik wrote:If I will record any pristine synthesizer music style Vangelis, Logic is the way to go. If the track elements are lo-fi and otherwise a dirty and a non-clean production, Live is fine for that. *)

*) The whole idea with Live is clip synchronization, i.e. warping and warping always introduces artifacts. As for pure midi editing, Live's MIDI editing tools are dismal compared with other DAWs.
so turn warp off.

btw Logic and Live use the same warp engine. 8O
As I said the whole idea is clip synchronization, if I don't need that then what is left is a pretty lousy MIDI editing environment, as well as a big lack of basic audio editing tools. And frankly speaking you could resize audio clips in Logic but Live does it automatically as it was designed for live performance. And compare flex to Live's warp points, oh don't let me talk about that... :-)

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