Ableton 9: No Comping Features

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
andydes
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Re: Ableton 9: No Comping Features

Post by andydes » Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:28 am

Live 4 adding midi and vsts was a big step. Apart from that, each new version added a handful of feature requests, new instruments (if you pay), new effects, new content, updates of existing devices and probably one surprise feature no one expected. Each time some people got the features they wanted most and others complained that ableton don't listen.

Any of that sound familiar? Live 9 looks like a classic ableton upgrade to me.

As for bitwig, they had the opportunity to start from scratch. They could look back at live's slow development from a simple audio looping instrument to where it is now. They could build much of live's current functionality from the ground up as well as getting free feedback from the feature request forum.

What they do that's really so innovative? Now I'm not saying they're not talented or that bitwig won't be good, but frankly I was hoping they'd do something a bit different to a direct competitor for ableton.

simpli.cissimus
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Re: Ableton 9: No Comping Features

Post by simpli.cissimus » Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:05 am

gisela-idol wrote:seems that the 4 was the 4 good guys.
...and the 4 apocalyptic riders of Live's end... :twisted: :lol: :mrgreen:
No! I'll never use the Push-App Live 9 !!!

simpli.cissimus
Posts: 518
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Re: Ableton 9: No Comping Features

Post by simpli.cissimus » Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:11 am

andydes wrote:Live 4 adding midi and vsts was a big step. Apart from that, each new version added a handful of feature requests, new instruments (if you pay), new effects, new content, updates of existing devices and probably one surprise feature no one expected. Each time some people got the features they wanted most and others complained that ableton don't listen.

Any of that sound familiar? Live 9 looks like a classic ableton upgrade to me.

As for bitwig, they had the opportunity to start from scratch. They could look back at live's slow development from a simple audio looping instrument to where it is now. They could build much of live's current functionality from the ground up as well as getting free feedback from the feature request forum.

What they do that's really so innovative? Now I'm not saying they're not talented or that bitwig won't be good, but frankly I was hoping they'd do something a bit different to a direct competitor for ableton.
Ableton had 3 years to rewrite Live and make it really top and efficient !
They decided to patch and keep running a old horse till it dies...

Bitwig is innovative, but you might over read the new features.

Per-Note editing and automation, using audio and midi on one track,
which is future of audio DAW and all will have one day.
Plus any audio format on one track and in one song without converting or so !
(44.1, 48, 96 or mp3,...all formats in one song)

Some more are announced, but it's all theory till Bitwig is out.
But when it's out..., it'll jump from zero2hero in days, you'll see !

But you're right...!
In some points Bitwig is oldskool, ...like a working PDC...! :roll:
No! I'll never use the Push-App Live 9 !!!

Evengy
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Re: Ableton 9: No Comping Features

Post by Evengy » Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:00 pm

in a parallel universe bitwig started in 1999 and live has PDC implemented in version 1 (2013 maybe).
please guys buy bitwig studio but believe that they have their own problems like every other software. so much live users, much more feature requests and it´s not possible to please everybody. i read so often that people wanna buy another daw because of one f ing feature. please leave or make more music! :)

Sage
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Re: Ableton 9: No Comping Features

Post by Sage » Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:46 pm

hmj wrote:I respect all your opinions but I don't necessarily care. This is about Track Comping and why it's taking Ableton so long to do it - no programming talent. I'm interested in insights on that.
Its seems you have forgot or completely unaware that Live started out as a live tool and only with version 8 it has started to become an alternative to traditional studio DAWs, so expecting it to start competing with software that have been around for 20 years is a bit ridiculous and Ableton need to focus on their niche, not on emulating competitors. Comping is nothing special and although it saves a few mouse clicks, the work involved is still time confusing, so personally, couldn't give a shit if any DAW had it, if a musician can't do something in no more than two takes, shouldn't be in a studio to start with!

sdfak1234
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Re: Ableton 9: No Comping Features

Post by sdfak1234 » Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:03 pm

Sage wrote:
hmj wrote:I respect all your opinions but I don't necessarily care. This is about Track Comping and why it's taking Ableton so long to do it - no programming talent. I'm interested in insights on that.
Its seems you have forgot or completely unaware that Live started out as a live tool and only with version 8 it has started to become an alternative to traditional studio DAWs, so expecting it to start competing with software that have been around for 20 years is a bit ridiculous and Ableton need to focus on their niche, not on emulating competitors. Comping is nothing special and although it saves a few mouse clicks, the work involved is still time confusing, so personally, couldn't give a shit if any DAW had it, if a musician can't do something in no more than two takes, shouldn't be in a studio to start with!
Sorry I have some issues with this response. First of all musicians don't just use comping for getting the right parts, it's also used to record multiple passes of automation or anything that involves altered prints. These techniques are used on most modern electronic tracks that occupy the itunes and beatport charts. Secondly, comping in Ableton Live takes on a whole new paradigm, it would not be like standard comping, it would used in Live to record multiple loops in a live context, perhaps plays jamming other parts, I have done this already with bands myself, Live already encourages this kind of workflow using the APC, it's really good, comping would just make it better. I think maybe you would appreciate comping more if you used it more, but whatever. Lastly, this idea that a new program can't compete with software that's been around for 20 years is actually false, there are variations but basically new software stands on the shoulders of old software, they did all the heavy lifting, newcomers can copy ideas and overcome pitfalls during development. The mature software then acts as a prototype for new software.. Bitwig for example has already been prototyped in Ableton Live. For them it's a kind of reverse re-engineering... but it's not even that because as others have debated to varying degrees, Bitwig has former Ableton employees.

deva
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Re: Ableton 9: No Comping Features

Post by deva » Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:18 pm

simpli.cissimus wrote:
Bitwig is innovative, but you might over read the new features.

Per-Note editing and automation,
WIll that work for 3rd party plug-ins? Or only the included instruments?

OzWozEre
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Re: Ableton 9: No Comping Features

Post by OzWozEre » Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:59 pm

Is "NO COMPING" the new NO PDC or the NO MULTI MONITOR SUPPORT?

I think you guys are really asking for trouble if you're adamant in shoving Live into a "traditional DAW" category.

What proper comping? Get Protools or Studio One....
Macbook Pro (2.5 Dual, 4gb) / 30" Cinema Display (I don't give a fuck about no multi-monitor support)

Sage
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Re: Ableton 9: No Comping Features

Post by Sage » Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:14 am

sdfak1234 wrote:
Sage wrote:
hmj wrote:I respect all your opinions but I don't necessarily care. This is about Track Comping and why it's taking Ableton so long to do it - no programming talent. I'm interested in insights on that.
Its seems you have forgot or completely unaware that Live started out as a live tool and only with version 8 it has started to become an alternative to traditional studio DAWs, so expecting it to start competing with software that have been around for 20 years is a bit ridiculous and Ableton need to focus on their niche, not on emulating competitors. Comping is nothing special and although it saves a few mouse clicks, the work involved is still time confusing, so personally, couldn't give a shit if any DAW had it, if a musician can't do something in no more than two takes, shouldn't be in a studio to start with!
Sorry I have some issues with this response. First of all musicians don't just use comping for getting the right parts, it's also used to record multiple passes of automation or anything that involves altered prints. These techniques are used on most modern electronic tracks that occupy the itunes and beatport charts. Secondly, comping in Ableton Live takes on a whole new paradigm, it would not be like standard comping, it would used in Live to record multiple loops in a live context, perhaps plays jamming other parts, I have done this already with bands myself, Live already encourages this kind of workflow using the APC, it's really good, comping would just make it better. I think maybe you would appreciate comping more if you used it more, but whatever. Lastly, this idea that a new program can't compete with software that's been around for 20 years is actually false, there are variations but basically new software stands on the shoulders of old software, they did all the heavy lifting, newcomers can copy ideas and overcome pitfalls during development. The mature software then acts as a prototype for new software.. Bitwig for example has already been prototyped in Ableton Live. For them it's a kind of reverse re-engineering... but it's not even that because as others have debated to varying degrees, Bitwig has former Ableton employees.
I do use comping, just regard it as a minor workflow convenience and could easily live without it, at least in regards to how its implemented in other DAWs. I have absolutely no idea how anyone would use comping in a live context, but I'd certainly be interested in seeing how comping could be advanced. Session view could already be used in a way that can emulate comping and just as "quick", just not as obvious in how you go about it compared to others at present.

K1D1M35N
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Re: Ableton 9: No Comping Features

Post by K1D1M35N » Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:02 pm

I used Live around two years without even knowing what comping really is...now I know what it is, still do not need it.

ian_halsall
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Re: Ableton 9: No Comping Features

Post by ian_halsall » Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:41 pm

it is really useful but you kind of get used to not having it.

the "one huge track" for loop recording of midi is rubbish

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