Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
pablorotter
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:08 am

Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by pablorotter » Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:18 am

metastatik wrote:
I thinks this is what it will all come down to. If they keep listening to their users, it will definitely become a magnificent device!
It already is a magnificent device. The problem is that the info that most have on it right now is limited and is leading to incorrect conclusions. For example, you mentioned that clip parameters didn’t appear to be accessible, but they are. You also mentioned that entering melodies via the step-sequencer wasn’t possible, but it is (a single sample/sound can easily be assigned across the keyrange in a Drum Rack).

At the moment, the only way to really learn about Push is to read the section on it in Live 9’s manual and, of course, have a good understanding of how Live itself works. As an example of what I mean on that last point, Live’s Session View is essentially a sampler with all sorts of neat tricks (follow actions, realtime quantization, envelopes per clip, etc). Contrary to what many are saying in this thread, you can easily record audio into a clip, duplicate it a bunch of times, adjust the start/end times of the duplicates and jam away…all without touching a mouse from Push.
If they treat it like the APC 40 and leave it in the hand of the 3rd parties and max patchers only, it will probably still stay around and be bought for a long time(like the APC40), but a great opportunity will be wasted.
First of all, the APC40 benefits from improvements/additions to Live. For example, the newly added ability to record automation in clips greatly benefits the APC40. Secondly, the fact that the APC40 (and any other controller for that matter) can be extended via hooks that Ableton put in place specifically for that purpose is a great thing…a really great thing. In fact, Maschine itself has benefited from that since day one. One of the first Maschine-related videos NI posted was showing it controlling Live via a MIDI Remote Script. That certainly helped push some Maschines out the door and a newer example of that is primarily why this thread was posted in the first place.

Using MIDI Remote Scripts and/or M4L to extend the capabilities of a controller like Push or Maschine or the APC40 is not a workaround or hack like many have suggested. These are parts of Live intended to be used for this exact purpose.

Personally, I don’t see Push/Live being very comparable at all to Maschine. Although you might have to do a few things with a mouse or use your ears, there is really nothing that Maschine can do that Live can’t. There is a very long laundry list of things that Live can do that Maschine can’t. Push merely offers a new means of controlling Live. It’s certainly not the only option or even a good option. It all depends on you and your needs and Live caters to a much wider range of needs than Maschine does.
I agree. I use APC40 with scripts, novation MKII w/automap, and maschine. I've also used humanscale's custom keyboard trays to make these devices disapear under my desk, except the maschine which I find an amazing stand for that lets me play it standing, at my workstation, or at the drumset. When I found maschine could easily stack drums and browse the entire NI komplete I can't think of anything else I need.

What could the push provide me that I can't already do? The scripts for the APC 40 are amazing, I've gone with the simpler package of prebuilt scripts but you can get the new open ended program and make it what you want.

Push makes more sense for users without a lot of controllers. I will buy a sub phatty instead, now those youtube videos impressed me.

I am interested in push, no doubt, I don't see a place for it in my setup, even mobile I'd rather bring my padkontrol (skripted) and a new novation launchkey 25.

Its hard to speculate on a new product, I definitely don't want to be a first adopter although I would never rule out buying gear.

-pAugustus

panten
Posts: 876
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:02 pm
Location: South of London

Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by panten » Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:22 pm

Another +1 for Push I think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEMZxZKhSXc
That touch strip is going to see a lot of use.

halblaine
Posts: 48
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:27 am

Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by halblaine » Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:04 am

Is it possible to hack the LCD? I'm thinking so that eventually someone can apply waveform control. In general, can programmers theoretically make the Push do anything? Or are they limited to manipulating MIDI paths that are already in place so to speak, funcionality that Ableton's own programmers have made but not implemented into the Push

monohusche
Posts: 190
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:28 pm
Location: Hongkong

Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by monohusche » Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:13 am

halblaine wrote:Is it possible to hack the LCD? I'm thinking so that eventually someone can apply waveform control. In general, can programmers theoretically make the Push do anything? Or are they limited to manipulating MIDI paths that are already in place so to speak, funcionality that Ableton's own programmers have made but not implemented into the Push
As far as I know, the display used in Push is a character display rather than a graphics display, so that shouldn't work. depends on the level of hacking that you want to do :-)

Guillermo Barrancos
Posts: 289
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:05 am

Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by Guillermo Barrancos » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:05 am

monohusche wrote:
halblaine wrote:Is it possible to hack the LCD? I'm thinking so that eventually someone can apply waveform control. In general, can programmers theoretically make the Push do anything? Or are they limited to manipulating MIDI paths that are already in place so to speak, funcionality that Ableton's own programmers have made but not implemented into the Push
As far as I know, the display used in Push is a character display rather than a graphics display, so that shouldn't work. depends on the level of hacking that you want to do :-)
From the Specs of Push:

Display
- Four line LCD alphanumeric display

So no.... you will never be able to display waveforms, as it's not a graphical display.
I Guess we will have to wait for the inevitable Push MkII to bring us that.

halblaine
Posts: 48
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:27 am

Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by halblaine » Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:57 pm

Ah, that's a bummer. What about the rest of my question though, do you know...? Can you theoretically make the Push do anything that you can do in Live? My impression is that it's "open" for hacking, but I don't know whether Ableton have actively prepared it for all sorts of radical modification/coding... with Max in the mix, are there any limits? Or is it 2 unlimited

skatr2
Posts: 450
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:38 pm

Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by skatr2 » Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:06 pm

halblaine wrote:Ah, that's a bummer. What about the rest of my question though, do you know...? Can you theoretically make the Push do anything that you can do in Live? My impression is that it's "open" for hacking, but I don't know whether Ableton have actively prepared it for all sorts of radical modification/coding... with Max in the mix, are there any limits? Or is it 2 unlimited
Push has features for max integration. So if you are up on max then you can take control of any part of push for whatever purpose that you decide you need and can code for. The only real limitation is the screen as stated...short of putting in a custom display, words and numbers are all it will display.

Freekster
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 6:33 pm

Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by Freekster » Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:05 pm

I'm owner of Live 9 Suite and Maschine and big difference what Push and Mashine will have is the bundled drum library. Maschine comes with thousands of high quality drum samples for all genres. 9 Suite has very weak bundled drum library. It will be big disapointment for Push owners that you can't just turn it on and start to jam with good sounds. Not at least if you are doing modern EDM.

If you own proper sample library that is mapped to drum racks then Push will do just fine.

Btw, how push will work with "The Last Drum Rack You Will Ever Make"?

brettonwoodsapocalypse
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:22 pm

Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by brettonwoodsapocalypse » Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:22 pm

I own both Maschine and L9 as well. While Maschine library is more extensive Live 9 new suite library is really good. In the end nobody needs 5000 kicks and 5000 snares, there's more that I need in L9 library. I use Maschine mainly as standalone as it's a great groove workstation, MPC style but a big clumsy within Live ( sequancer inside a sequencer ... ). Push is more like an instrument.

Max for Live is one of the main differences between Maschine and Push. When Maschine was first released a lot of features were missing and it grew over time. It will be the same with Push with the exception that we could potentially have a lot of hacks made by individuals making this a great solution for custom needs ( reaktor style ).
I could play with Push only for an hour last week at a friend but it looks definitely like an instrument, not a controller like Maschine which only excele at drums (that's fine by me).

I recommend reading Sound on sound review of push or the one by Peter Kirn : [url]ttp://createdigitalmusic.com/2013/03/push-in-depth-test-whats-it-like-playing-the-new-hardware-from-ableton/[url]

TYLRbass
Posts: 277
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:51 pm

Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by TYLRbass » Thu Mar 21, 2013 5:32 pm

Freekster wrote:I'm owner of Live 9 Suite and Maschine and big difference what Push and Mashine will have is the bundled drum library. Maschine comes with thousands of high quality drum samples for all genres. 9 Suite has very weak bundled drum library. It will be big disapointment for Push owners that you can't just turn it on and start to jam with good sounds. Not at least if you are doing modern EDM.

If you own proper sample library that is mapped to drum racks then Push will do just fine.

Btw, how push will work with "The Last Drum Rack You Will Ever Make"?
FWIW, all the samples in your Maschine library should be accessible from the Live browser (if you add it to Places)

and with the "The Last Drum Rack You Will Ever Make" I think you may run into the whole Drum Rack vs. Instrument Rack problem..
Image

blinkeye
Posts: 164
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:28 pm

Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by blinkeye » Thu Mar 21, 2013 5:39 pm

lionelrc wrote:I own both Maschine and L9 as well. While Maschine library is more extensive Live 9 new suite library is really good. In the end nobody needs 5000 kicks and 5000 snares, there's more that I need in L9 library. I use Maschine mainly as standalone as it's a great groove workstation, MPC style but a big clumsy within Live ( sequancer inside a sequencer ... ). Push is more like an instrument.

Max for Live is one of the main differences between Maschine and Push. When Maschine was first released a lot of features were missing and it grew over time. It will be the same with Push with the exception that we could potentially have a lot of hacks made by individuals making this a great solution for custom needs ( reaktor style ).
I could play with Push only for an hour last week at a friend but it looks definitely like an instrument, not a controller like Maschine which only excele at drums (that's fine by me).
Interesting... To me, Maschine is more of an instrument because of its ability to be completely hands-on and mouse-free while Push seems like it would feel more like a controller in comparison because you will still be forced to use the mouse and stare at the computer screen for most things. Even with M4L/python hacks, there will be limitations due to Push only having a character-based display and not a graphical one.

And I completely disagree with the assertion that Maschine "only excels at drums". It's a full-on workstation and turns every plugin I have into a hardware instrument due to the automapping being so well-implemented, especially for anything from Komplete because of the preset integration. As far as nobody needing "5000 kicks and 5000 snares", Maschine actually comes with 922 kicks and 698 snares but it doesn't really matter how many because of the excellent browser system where you can drill down so quickly to exactly the sound you want in seconds with multiple levels of tags and you can even include your own custom tags. All in all, you can't really compare the two anyway as they would not be able to replace each other. They would complement each other more than anything.

skatr2
Posts: 450
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:38 pm

Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by skatr2 » Thu Mar 21, 2013 6:05 pm

from what I've seen of push, I think it will excel at initial music creation more than anything. scanning your library, playing out drums, chords, and melodies, and adding automation as you go along. given the default d features, this is more what I think it was designed for. then from there you mouse around as you arrange, chop, and move around samples. personally I don't need a display to chop samples as those gritty editing sessions where I want to move transients around. but everyone has their preferences too.

lo.key
Posts: 360
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:05 pm

Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by lo.key » Thu Mar 21, 2013 6:05 pm

instrument or controller? who cares about such an arbitrary distinction. it comes down to how hard you rock out on it. both seem very capable devices.

halblaine
Posts: 48
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:27 am

Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by halblaine » Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:10 pm

I actually think it will be feasible to chop samples on the alphanumeric display with a hack.

Image

It will look pretty ugly and fragmented across the different display rows, but decent enough to make sense

deva
Posts: 1685
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:32 pm

Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by deva » Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:17 pm

panten wrote:
humnumb wrote:Push is limited to 16 pads (4x4) at once for Drum Racks.
Not true at all. Push has a User Mode which will allow you to trigger 64 rack pads., we've already gone over this in this thread I thought.
humnumb is a Maschine troll here with the sole purpose of denigrating Push

Post Reply