Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
deva
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Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by deva » Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:25 pm

blinkeye wrote:
lionelrc wrote:I own both Maschine and L9 as well. While Maschine library is more extensive Live 9 new suite library is really good. In the end nobody needs 5000 kicks and 5000 snares, there's more that I need in L9 library. I use Maschine mainly as standalone as it's a great groove workstation, MPC style but a big clumsy within Live ( sequancer inside a sequencer ... ). Push is more like an instrument.

Max for Live is one of the main differences between Maschine and Push. When Maschine was first released a lot of features were missing and it grew over time. It will be the same with Push with the exception that we could potentially have a lot of hacks made by individuals making this a great solution for custom needs ( reaktor style ).
I could play with Push only for an hour last week at a friend but it looks definitely like an instrument, not a controller like Maschine which only excele at drums (that's fine by me).
Interesting... To me, Maschine is more of an instrument because of its ability to be completely hands-on and mouse-free while Push seems like it would feel more like a controller in comparison because you will still be forced to use the mouse and stare at the computer screen for most things. Even with M4L/python hacks, there will be limitations due to Push only having a character-based display and not a graphical one.

And I completely disagree with the assertion that Maschine "only excels at drums". It's a full-on workstation and turns every plugin I have into a hardware instrument due to the automapping being so well-implemented, especially for anything from Komplete because of the preset integration. As far as nobody needing "5000 kicks and 5000 snares", Maschine actually comes with 922 kicks and 698 snares but it doesn't really matter how many because of the excellent browser system where you can drill down so quickly to exactly the sound you want in seconds with multiple levels of tags and you can even include your own custom tags. All in all, you can't really compare the two anyway as they would not be able to replace each other. They would complement each other more than anything.
It is hard to see Maschine as an instrument for me because it only has 16 pads... which is also why many people see it as mainly for drums. 16 is not enough for playing melodic instruments effectively... Maschine is good solid hardware, but the 64 pads on Push is what makes it able to function as an 'instrument' for me (different definitions of instrument :))

blinkeye
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Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by blinkeye » Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:34 pm

deva wrote:It is hard to see Maschine as an instrument for me because it only has 16 pads... which is also why many people see it as mainly for drums. 16 is not enough for playing melodic instruments effectively... Maschine is good solid hardware, but the 64 pads on Push is what makes it able to function as an 'instrument' for me (different definitions of instrument :))
Huh. The number of pads are not at all what makes something an instrument for me. It's all about the actual experience of playing a hardware instrument for me, compared to a controller that would force you to constantly click around with a mouse on a computer screen. Also you're ignoring the fact that you can plug in any MIDI/USB keyboards to play melodies in Maschine. If you've actually used Maschine you would know that it's far from just being "mainly for drums". It's more of a viable alternative to Live's session view with a mouseless hardware workflow.

markos
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Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by markos » Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:02 pm

I don't see why you can't have both. IMO the lifespan of a midi controller is cut quite short by consumers. I mean lets look at the APC40. 3 years may seem like a long time, but I find it amazing that people are "over" the concept as soon as the next best thing comes out. The way I see it, PUSH is another way for me to get TOTAL control over Ableton Live and the two combined could be very very effective.

Maschine on the other hand offers a vast library of sound that will keep any producer busy for years. Upgrade to Komplete, and your studio will need a toilet and sink install because you'll never want to leave. If you plan on getting komplete or using any Native instruments plug ins, Maschine is the perfect companion to this. Also when you want to DJ (if you use traktor) Maschine is an amazing controller for this as well.

The best way to decide is to look at your workflow and try to understand what it is that you want each device to do for you. What do you envision each button, or knob controlling? Are you someone who keeps a consistent work flow or do you change things up ALL the time?

There are to many limitations to music making these days, and technology seems to be the main player in this. Buy the one that is going to allow you to make the best music possible.

deva
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Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by deva » Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:09 am

blinkeye wrote:
deva wrote:It is hard to see Maschine as an instrument for me because it only has 16 pads... which is also why many people see it as mainly for drums. 16 is not enough for playing melodic instruments effectively... Maschine is good solid hardware, but the 64 pads on Push is what makes it able to function as an 'instrument' for me (different definitions of instrument :))
Huh. The number of pads are not at all what makes something an instrument for me. It's all about the actual experience of playing a hardware instrument for me, compared to a controller that would force you to constantly click around with a mouse on a computer screen. Also you're ignoring the fact that you can plug in any MIDI/USB keyboards to play melodies in Maschine. If you've actually used Maschine you would know that it's far from just being "mainly for drums". It's more of a viable alternative to Live's session view with a mouseless hardware workflow.

Like I said, different definitions... From my perspective, if you have to plug-in a keyboard, then it is the keyboard you are playing, not Maschine. Maschine by itself is not for playing instruments. It only has the 16 pads.. Push has the 64 pads and the touch strip. (no modwheel or touch strip on Maschine). Maschine is a fine device which serves many people but it is not offering what Push does and which is what I am interested in. With a laptop and Push in my backpack I can be self contained and still have more keys than my main 61 note midi controller (which is far bigger). Push also can be mouse free where it matters to me. A laptop and Maschine would not be satisfying.

To me they seem very different in purpose.

blinkeye
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Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by blinkeye » Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:41 am

deva wrote:From my perspective, if you have to plug-in a keyboard, then it is the keyboard you are playing, not Maschine. Maschine by itself is not for playing instruments.
Maschine's pads actually work great for playing all kinds of instruments, not just drums. I do use the pads to play melodies because it encourages a different way of playing than a keyboard. Maschine has always come with a wide range of instruments and it has the most expressive and sensitive pads I've ever played on. It even comes with Massive and Komplete Elements. I don't know if you've actually used Maschine before, or standalone hardware, but the experience of using Maschine is the closest thing in a software environment to playing a hardware instrument.

djadonis206
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Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by djadonis206 » Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:32 am

I'm curious what the average age of the people posting in this thread is?
Ableton | Elektron

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Tarekith
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Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by Tarekith » Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:35 am

markos wrote:I don't see why you can't have both. IMO the lifespan of a midi controller is cut quite short by consumers. I mean lets look at the APC40. 3 years may seem like a long time, but I find it amazing that people are "over" the concept as soon as the next best thing comes out. The way I see it, PUSH is another way for me to get TOTAL control over Ableton Live and the two combined could be very very effective.

Maschine on the other hand offers a vast library of sound that will keep any producer busy for years. Upgrade to Komplete, and your studio will need a toilet and sink install because you'll never want to leave. If you plan on getting komplete or using any Native instruments plug ins, Maschine is the perfect companion to this. Also when you want to DJ (if you use traktor) Maschine is an amazing controller for this as well.

The best way to decide is to look at your workflow and try to understand what it is that you want each device to do for you. What do you envision each button, or knob controlling? Are you someone who keeps a consistent work flow or do you change things up ALL the time?

There are to many limitations to music making these days, and technology seems to be the main player in this. Buy the one that is going to allow you to make the best music possible.
Here here, well said! :)

pencilrocket
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Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by pencilrocket » Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:07 am

  • The best tool for plyaing some notes : Keyboard
  • The best tools for triggering clips : Launchpad, APCs, etc
  • The best tool for drum pad : MPC-style pruducts
  • Almost all the commercial songs are made by producers using computer and mouse/trackpad.
Shall we recommend people not to follow these principles? I think not. At least PUSH won't break basic principles.
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Guillermo Barrancos
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Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by Guillermo Barrancos » Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:22 am

pencilrocket wrote:
  • Almost all the commercial songs are made by producers using computer and mouse/trackpad.
And how is all that Commercial Garbage created?
If all you do is sampling other people's work.... sure, you only need a mouse and a computerscreen. :?

I rest my case.

pencilrocket
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Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by pencilrocket » Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:40 am

Then why should I write about the keyboard & drumpad if I thought all the thing producers doing is copying other poeple's work? It's your idea, not mine.
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brettonwoodsapocalypse
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Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by brettonwoodsapocalypse » Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:52 pm

deva wrote:
panten wrote:
humnumb wrote:Push is limited to 16 pads (4x4) at once for Drum Racks.
Not true at all. Push has a User Mode which will allow you to trigger 64 rack pads., we've already gone over this in this thread I thought.
humnumb is a Maschine troll here with the sole purpose of denigrating Push
Agree on that. We are all here to discuss pros and cons of different hardware/software solutions but in the end nobodty has the truth, it all depends on your way of working. Guys like humnumb seem to be unable to see one advatage to "the other side" so nothingconstructive seem to ever come from discussing with them.

Maschine is the best because it has the biggest pads, the biggest screen and you never need to look at the computer and it can prepare coffee at the same time.

delicioso
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Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by delicioso » Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:31 pm

markos wrote:There are to many limitations to music making these days, and technology seems to be the main player in this.
I would think it's the other way around, that people are increasingly paralyzed by too many choices as advancements in technology continue to remove limitations. I find Maschine to be the perfect antidote to being overwhelmed by too many choices and open ended possibilities. It strikes a nice balance between providing a set of constraints that encourages productivity yet still being flexible enough to cater to different workflow preferences.

deva
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Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by deva » Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:43 pm

blinkeye wrote:
deva wrote:From my perspective, if you have to plug-in a keyboard, then it is the keyboard you are playing, not Maschine. Maschine by itself is not for playing instruments.
Maschine's pads actually work great for playing all kinds of instruments, not just drums. I do use the pads to play melodies because it encourages a different way of playing than a keyboard. Maschine has always come with a wide range of instruments and it has the most expressive and sensitive pads I've ever played on. It even comes with Massive and Komplete Elements. I don't know if you've actually used Maschine before, or standalone hardware, but the experience of using Maschine is the closest thing in a software environment to playing a hardware instrument.
Hey, if it suits you that's cool... but a controller with only 16 notes (basically 1 octave) is just way too few for me... no other cool features can overcome that limitation. I also consider a modwheel or ribbon as essential for playing and Maschine does not have one. So while you may personally find it great, it is not great in any general sense for playing instruments or functioning as a controller. Maschine is not even close to having enough notes to be able to have a split keyboard, playing a bassline and lead together, or playing a piano, or having a split with drum rack and other instruments. 16 pads cannot cover the range of the great majority of orchestral instruments.

With Push and racks I can have all manner of setups, keyboard splits etc. I could have drums, bass and lead all at the same time. Maschine cannot come close to this sort of capability.

markos
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Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by markos » Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:47 pm

delicioso wrote:
markos wrote:There are to many limitations to music making these days, and technology seems to be the main player in this.
I would think it's the other way around, that people are increasingly paralyzed by too many choices as advancements in technology continue to remove limitations. I find Maschine to be the perfect antidote to being overwhelmed by too many choices and open ended possibilities. It strikes a nice balance between providing a set of constraints that encourages productivity yet still being flexible enough to cater to different workflow preferences.
Everyone has their own point of view, but I feel that when you are constantly being fed solutions you are taking your mindset away from making music and focusing more on the technological aspect of things. Of course these advancements in technology make it easier to control software and customize, but questions like these are only stopping you from making music. Its really a double edge sword.

humnumb
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Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by humnumb » Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:11 pm

Maschine itself is not at all limited to "only 16 notes (basically 1 octave)". To me, that the experience of using Maschine feels like playing a hardware instrument is not mutually exclusive from the ability to play on other controllers and instruments I may have also plugged in such as a keyboard or an isomorphic grid controller app on the iPad. And I can use them together without ever touching the mouse or even looking at the computer screen. I think this is why I'm skeptical about Push because it's just a controller and doesn't really offer anything new for what I'm already doing.

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