Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

[Buleriachk]

(I do kind of think that Push may be a solution looking for a problem)

I didn't want to go as far as you did on the sound quality of the Maschine sound sets, but I do agree with you completely.

Well, I do admit that I may be actually very unfair to Live, since the presets in Maschine and Massive have effects added, and a lot of the instruments in Live don't. Adding a bit of reverb makes a huge difference in a lot of the Live instruments.... But as a guitarist I can truthfully say that Amp sucks compared to GR5 (for guitars; other users have used it with keyboards to good effect).....

[panten]

Not sure if anyone cares but I did buy a Maschine Mk2 and not a Push. My final reasoning was:

1) Maschine is a more mature platform with a few more years of development under its belt.
2) I have always believed that using different tools from different companies together gives a more unique sound so mixing NI with Live accomplishes this.
3) I can always buy a Push later if I want too.
4) The sound sets in Maschine are incredible sounding.
5) It came with a full version of Massive and a $30 credit at their store.
6) There are far more tutorials and help videos for Maschine than Push.
7) The Maschine is smaller and takes less real estate on my already cramped workspace.
8. The initial roll out of Push seems a bit rushed as demand was grossly underestimated, or Akai cannot handle production.
9) There are far more expansions available for Maschine than Push as it stands today.
10) I don't need yet another Ableton Live Intro license.
11) No need for a power cord to get full colored pads
12) Push has no din MIDI I/0 on the back. (The again, PUSH has sustain pedal)

So there we go. I will probably end up with a Push eventually, but for now I think I made the best decision for me.

Thanks for that dysanfel. Some good legitimate reasons there for going with Maschine, you will have tons of fun with it I'm sure. I very, VERY nearly jumped the gun and went with Maschine, then the flood of YouTube vids on Push started arriving and I decided to hold off. Have to say I'm supremely glad I did as I haven't had this much joy creating music since many years.

Reasons I went with Push.

1) Large surface for playing Instruments. This is a huge plus and has to be tried to fully appreciate.
2) Deep integration with Live session view and devices. There are a few omissions in dept. But will surely get better with time.
3) Ableton seem committed to continuing to iterate on Push. So the future bodes well.
4) Pad quality (on my hardware) is top notch. Couldn't be happier. Sorry to those guys who received bum units, hope the % is low.
5) Community of Python scripters & M4L hackers seems lively. Looking forward to learning this myself.
6) Build quality in general is excellent. It just doesn't budge on my desktop.
7) Beat juggling while in Drum Rack mode is an inspired bit of workflow, I'll be using that a LOT.
8) Smaller drum pads (this is a plus point for me and the style in which I play, used to tabletop drum all the time)
9) Touch strip. Great context sensitive use.
10) Step sequence/real-time drum & loop juggling at the same time. Didn't think I'd be so into the step sequencing but it's a super smooth workflow.
11) I like all the dedicated buttons. Once the muscle memory kicks in I can see myself flying around this kit. I do feel a lot of buttons could be sensibly doubled up to perform missing functions or be used contextually.
12) Browsing the Live Library. This needs worked on but is nice to be able to do from the controller
13) Digging into devices to access banks of parameters is awesome especially when auto-populating vsts etc.
14) Touch sensitive encoders.

There's good and bad with both controllers in the Live ecosystem with lots of overlap but enough differences to own both if you can afford it.

Good luck to all trying to make a similar decision.

[Buleriachk]

I respect Push and its potential application with Live. But for now, I'll get comfy with Maschine and all my new sound toys (they really do sound quite extraordinary). I'm sure there is a Push awaiting me somewhere down the line (I do envy the extra knobs and buttons, but everything is doable with the Mikro, and my APC40 and Launchpad are great controllers by themselves)

[Ginkgo]

I've got them both, and they are both excellent tools.

Things Maschine is awesome at:

-Sampling
-parameter control of all the NI Komplete products
-Working almost entirely mouse free
-Can audition sounds for a kit prior to loading them.

But Maschine sucks at:

- Can't take MIDI in (IE can't tell a drum rack to send MIDI into Maschine)
-limited ins/outs (ie, can't tell every separate group in Maschine to send to its own channe in Live)
-It's very mediocre as a Live controller, contrary to what you see in that youtube video.
-You either love it's sequencer or hate it.
-pitchshifting/stretching
-side chaining

Push, on the other hand:

Awesome at:

-Playing! You've never jammed like this before.
-Step sequencing- way more pads than Maschine, meaning more elaborate patterns without switching pages
-Controlling Native Ableton instruments, obviously
-the build quality is superior
-The Workflow is meant for Ableton (Compared to Maschine, which, even at its best, has a janky relationship with Live.)

Needs Work:

- you cannot sample Maschine-style
- cannot audition sounds from the controller the way you can in the new Browser.
- you'll definitely still be using the mouse, though less frequently

On the whole, I'd say that if you want an MPC style workflow, or you prefer something with limitations, go with Maschine. If you love Ableton and want a cutting edge instrument that is incredibly flexible, go with Push.

[SilverNeedle]

is the display of push capable of displaying an audio file like the maschine unit can Ginko?

[monohusche]

is the display of push capable of displaying an audio file like the maschine unit can Ginko?

No

[humnumb]

- Can't take MIDI in

Wrong. Maschine does take MIDI in.

-limited ins/outs (ie, can't tell every separate group in Maschine to send to its own channe in Live)

Wrong again. Maschine has 16 stereo outputs (32 outputs) and supports as many inputs as your audio interface has. You can very easily route each separate group in Maschine to its own channel in Live.

-It's very mediocre as a Live controller, contrary to what you see in that youtube video.

lol You're trying to pass off a subjective opinion without any substance as fact other than to say "mediocre". There are actually several excellent Live templates for Maschine, including the newly updated official one from NI and many people will disagree with you.

-You either love it's sequencer or hate it.

Thanks for pointing out the obvious, Captain Obvious.

-pitchshifting/stretching

What about them? That the upcoming realtime timestretch/pitchshift haven't been implemented yet? The current offline timestretch works super fast and can achieve very different results than the stretching options in Live.

Please spend enough time with the gear before trying to pass off false assumptions as facts so you don't spread misinformation like this.

[SuburbanThug]

If you are just visiting this thread you should know that it is actually the "Why you should buy a Maschine instead of a Push" thread. Post accordingly.

[Peels]

I plan on playing with Push asap, and knowing my gear lust, I'll probably get one.
But for all the people talking about how push gives you scale modes? Seriously? I've been using the midi scales in Live for years now. Scale+transpose and you're playing only right notes, only on white keys.

[SuburbanThug]

If you're used to playing on a keyboard using that function a Push might take a little getting used to. I always felt clumsy on keys (admittedly playing only in C was a lot easier) but the layouts on Push are more intuitive for me. I can just fly around the thing. Musically it's pretty liberating, for programming it's a bit more dictatorial but not unreasonably so.

[mutant23]

But for all the people talking about how push gives you scale modes? Seriously? I've been using the midi scales in Live for years now. Scale+transpose and you're playing only right notes, only on white keys.

Yeah, I play piano/guitar and I can already play scales on my 88-key controller so Push is quite meh to me. It does seem like Push would be more useful for beginners with no traditional music background.

[SuburbanThug]

But for all the people talking about how push gives you scale modes? Seriously? I've been using the midi scales in Live for years now. Scale+transpose and you're playing only right notes, only on white keys.

Yeah, I play piano/guitar and I can already play scales on my 88-key controller so Push is quite meh to me. It does seem like Push would be more useful for beginners with no traditional music background.

It's going to completely change things for people with no traditional background and piss off some and maybe many people that have it. I hear that if your a guitarist the layout is pretty pleasing. I have no training but I've been writing for about 17 years. The one thing it offers people who do have a traditional background or who are self taught is an opportunity to break old habits. It is a way different animal than a keyboard and can be more playable if you use the provided layouts rather than a straight chromatic style layout. A lot of things that you might have a tough time managing rhythmically on a keyboard are easier and faster on it.

[mutant23]

It is a way different animal than a keyboard and can be more playable if you use the provided layouts rather than a straight chromatic style layout. A lot of things that you might have a tough time managing rhythmically on a keyboard are easier and faster on it.

I know, but none of that requires Push. I can already to all that on my iPad using Musix for example. Push really doesn't offer much over what I already have between Maschine and the iPad.

[SuburbanThug]

I can see where you are coming from with the iPad, I think. I imagine you have some isomorphic layouts with scales and what not. If there is a Push style map out there I would recommend you try it as it has helped me break some creative habits and discover new ways of playing and writing. The only advantages to Push in terms of playability would be more playing surface, aftertouch, and sensitivity. And for me the tactile response.

Comparing Push and Maschine is useless though. If someone is sitting on the fence between Push and Maschine then they don't even have a comprehensive idea of what each product does. Push is an instrument. It's layout and approach is unique. It is geared more towards this than being a sequencer or clip launcher. It is meant to be played like any other instrument and has greatly exceeded my expectations in this regard. It is certainly not just for finger drumming although finger drummers will be very happy with it.

[blinkeye]

Push is an instrument. It's layout and approach is unique.

What makes something an instrument is all about the actual experience of playing it and being immersed within that experience. As a whole, the experience of using Maschine is the closest thing in a software environment to playing a hardware instrument because of its ability to be completely hands-on and mouse-free, compared to Push which is more of a software controller that would still force you to constantly click around with a mouse and stare at a glowing computer screen for most things.