Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

[halblaine]

Won't every Push issue eventually be solved with someone's Max patch?

why wait for Push to maybe get the fixes you want to see eventually for the same price as Maschine which does all of that now?? Its like marrying the side chick because she has potential to being amazing when your girlfriend is already perfect.

Ah, but the side chick has so much potential... I can't look away. Just imagine what she has the potential to be. And all those colours and rubber pads! It's gotta be us two. Should I give her up because of... reason and common sense? Yeah I prolly should but... I don't think I will.

[humnumb]

The problem is that the info that most have on it right now is limited and is leading to incorrect conclusions. For example, you mentioned that clip parameters didn’t appear to be accessible, but they are and this is not limited to warped clips as others have incorrectly stated.

I'm not sure what TomViolenz was referring to but as far as plugin parameters are concerned, here's Ableton's offical answer:
With VSTs, we currently can't access parameters in an automatic and consistent way, as we can with our own devices, so you would be left with a way to load a VST, but not control it automatically.

Also, regarding controls being limited only to clips that have already been warped:
"Is it possible to use the encoders with the audio samples to preview unwarped samples on the browser and jump to different parts of the waveform?.That would be amazing, use the start encoder to finally move into unwarped clips on the browser."
No, currently you can only navigate the start encoder of warped audio files.

At the moment, the only way to really learn about Push is to read the section on it in Live 9’s manual and, of course, have a good understanding of how Live itself works.

No. You can also get answers directly from Ableton's Jesse Terry here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=186306

Contrary to what many are saying in this thread, you can easily record audio into a clip, duplicate it a bunch of times, adjust the start/end times of the duplicates and jam away…all without touching a mouse from Push.

You may be just thinking about session view clips but others were talking about Drum Racks and here are Jesse's answers in that thread:

"Is there any way to quickly duplicate pads on Drum Racks from the Push controller?"
At the moment, no.
"will the push be able to slice audio to midi"
Not currently.
"and assign warp markers on audio? therefore allowing one to chop samples without a mouse?"
Not currently.
"when creating drumracks containing m4l samplers, do I need to write a loadmess into the buffer objects with a reference location to the audiofiles, or can I make patches with dropfile and use push browser to find the audiofiles I want to use with the patch? If that does not work would maybe a push compatible dropfile or similar object be a good idea, so you can use push to load samples into m4l"
I doubt it, we can't load audio files from Push currently, but your wish is noted.
"Will it be possible to press a clip on Push with midi or audio data and duplicate it to another by pressing on a vacant pad?"
We don't currently support copying and pasting clips
"Is there any sequencing of regular midi tracks? Or just drum rack tracks?"
Currently there is only step sequencing of drum rack tracks.
"When using Push in a more generic midi mode, to control a range of parameters which we have mapped, such as panning, effects, etc for a DJ set, will we still get the corrosponding labelling on the Push display?"
I think you mean remote mapping the User mode on Push? I don't believe we are able to update the display with custom mappings.

And you can already tell from Ableton's answers that there will be a long list of Live's controls that cannot be controlled from Push, including for example, accessing the mixer or the sends of Drum Racks.

Although you might have to do a few things with a mouse or use your ears, there is really nothing that Maschine can do that Live can’t.

False. Here are just some of the examples of the many things that Maschine does that Live & Push simply cannot do:

- step sequence regular midi tracks from the hardware
- slice samples from the hardware
- sample editing with just the hardware due to the waveforms showing up on the hardware's LCD displays
- add/remove slices from the hardware
- browse and load audio/clips from the hardware
- duplicate pads (equivalent to Drum Racks pads in Live) from the hardware
- edit start/end points for unwarped audio clips from the hardware
- make multiple selection of notes from the hardware
- automap to plugins without having to save them in a different format first
- step automation (aka step parameter locks/p-locks)
- open/close plugins from the hardware
- open a set or even start a new set from the hardware
- copy/paste clips from the hardware
- preview/pre-hear samples in browser from the hardware
- the ability to be mouseless (and even computer screen-less) for pretty much every control of its software
- make custom names to show up in the hardware's displays when used as a midi controller
- everything in Komplete 8, including all presets, automatically shows up in Maschine's hardware to be browsed and loaded
...etc.

[metastatik]

^^ Did you consider reading any of the text you quoted? I didn’t say anything about plugin parameters or mention chopping in Drum Racks and very clearly stated that some things in Live will still require using a mouse and your ears.

Also, Push and Live 9 are still being developed, so it should come as no surprise that things Jesse said in the past may have been changed. The Live 9 manual, which is updated with each new beta release, is a much more reliable source of info. Or, for the technically minded, Push’s source code.

If you want to talk so much about Push, you should really consider learning as much as you can about it first (which would require joining the Live 9 beta or waiting until Push is released)…otherwise, you’re going to end up choking on your foot.

[metastatik]

-- Accidental double post --

[delicioso]

I didn’t say anything about plugin parameters or mention chopping in Drum Racks and very clearly stated that some things in Live will still require using a mouse and your ears.

And therein lies the major difference between the two devices. Push will undeniably require you to use a mouse and constantly look back and forth from the controller and the computer screen while controlling Live for a lot of things. Maschine, on the other hand, can be used without ever touching the mouse/qwerty keyboard and even without looking the computer screen for the entire process, other than the few obvious things outside of the actual music making process where it makes more sense to, like importing/tagging samples, naming projects, and drag and dropping.

Maschine will still require you to use your ears. In fact, it's precisely Maschine's ability to be free from the computer screen when you want to, that makes you use your ears more when using Maschine.

[metastatik]

^^ So the “actual music making process” never involves recording live instrument or vocal tracks (neither of which Maschine is very well equipped to handle with or without a mouse/qwerty/monitor)? Also, if Maschine is so capable in the realms of this process why in the world are you (or anyone else for that matter) using it with Live?

The reality is that making music with a computer will almost always require interacting with the computer. There is no escape from that (not with Maschine, not with Push and not with a studio full of hardware) unless you’re willing to live with some VERY severe limitations.

[aioffermann]

The power of Ableton's Sampler, Drum Rack, and Instrument Rack combined with Push's ability to step sequence those things = kaboom thats the shit right there.

[TomViolenz]

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[panten]

TomV, you're correct in your assumption, I do own Live 8 Suite and have been giving the 9 Beta a go too.
This is the reason I started this thread in the 1st place, I need a controller that will aid with the creative process. The Maschine seems to be able to cover all bases but Push just has more immediate 'performance' surface.

I view Push as having future possibilities and that's what is keeping me from buying Maschine at the moment. Can you imagine the MIDI remote scripts that will appear, picture having 64 drum rack pads at your fingertips.
If Ableton sort out the problem of real time sampling, setting warp markers, realtime, transient threshold parameters, midi mapping start end points in sampler then I'd be pretty happy with Push.

At the moment I'm teetering on the Maschine side.

[delicioso]

^^ So the “actual music making process” never involves recording live instrument or vocal tracks (neither of which Maschine is very well equipped to handle with or without a mouse/qwerty/monitor)?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nF3uGMYc5j8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYhKLkZLOjw

[panten]

Gotta admit it makes Live's Drum Racks look quite archaic..

[metastatik]

If the things you are saying are true and the capabilities have already been extended since Jesse has commented on them and the development of Push's capabilities does not stop at the release I will be more than willing to change my opinion. I'm not eager to be dragged into a fan war. Just not my style.

Fan war? First of all, I own Maschine and have for many years. Secondly, I made a total of one post in this thread and would’ve been happy to leave it at that, but a couple of people chose to debate with points that were made for no good reason and I simply responded in kind.

None of the points I clarified for you require any leap of faith or have anything to do with future developments of Push. If you re-read my initial post and compare it to Jesse’s comments, you’ll see that it’s all congruent. Note, however, that my original post did contain a comment (related to adjusting clip parameters of non-warped clips), which disagreed with something Jesse said. I removed it for that reason (even though it was true) and before any else had commented, but humnumb had quoted it in the interim.

Anyhow, my apologies for clarifying some points about Push and Live. I figured it would’ve been useful to you, the OP and the conversation as a whole, but see that it wasn’t, so I'll leave it alone.

[TomViolenz]

If the things you are saying are true and the capabilities have already been extended since Jesse has commented on them and the development of Push's capabilities does not stop at the release I will be more than willing to change my opinion. I'm not eager to be dragged into a fan war. Just not my style.

Fan war? First of all, I own Maschine and have for many years. Secondly, I made a total of one post in this thread and would’ve been happy to leave it at that, but a couple of people chose to debate with points that were made for no good reason and I simply responded in kind.

None of the points I clarified for you require any leap of faith or have anything to do with future developments of Push. If you re-read my initial post and compare it to Jesse’s comments, you’ll see that it’s all congruent. Note, however, that my original post did contain a comment (related to adjusting clip parameters of non-warped clips), which disagreed with something Jesse said. I removed it for that reason (even though it was true) and before any else had commented, but humnumb had quoted it in the interim.

Anyhow, my apologies for clarifying some points about Push and Live. I figured it would’ve been useful to you, the OP and the conversation as a whole, but see that it wasn’t, so I'll leave it alone.

I'm sorry that it came across like I was accusing you of dragging me into, or being in a fan war. I just meant that I generally don't like fan wars. I should not have quoted you for my post. Sorry

[panten]

True, guys let's not turn this into a Maschine evangelist hangout or a Push apologist society There are enough of those type of threads unfortunately.

We should not be ashamed to say if there's something about our chosen controller that we don't like. In the long term everybody is informed and who knows, some of the information might trickle uphill to the developers. I'm beta testing Live 9 and trying to support and report any issues that concern me about potential workflow with Push (amongst other issues) It's been pretty stable for me so far.

I would really love that Maschine workflow on Push tbh but as it stands it doesn't seem to have what it takes. Still sitting on the fence though.

[glitchrock-buddha]

As an Ableton Live user, I think the best options are Either get both, use t hem for what they are good for, or only get Push. I don't think it would be wise to get Maschine as a primary controller. As a Live controller you just can't compare the 16 pads to 64, and the other functions in Push specific to Live. It's all about the Maschine software being used with it's hardware.

If your'e cool with drum racks, and doing sample editing in the usual mouse fashion, then Push will be perfect. If you want that extra control of drums, one-shot samples and sliced loops from a dedicated controller, then add Maschine.

I have Maschine and I'll be picking up Push. What I'm not sure about yet is how much I'll use Drum Racks for my Drum tracks. The way Push handles them looks impressive to me. The Maschine integration is still lacking to me (exposed automation parameters, the way of linking patterns to clips etc.). It might be nice to simplify a bit and use Drum Racks more with Push. For slicing though I still don't like Live's methods. I'll keep using Maschine or Kontakt.