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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:17 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:02 pm
Posts: 762
Location: South of London
I went and did it! pre-ordered Push tonight. I couldn't contain myself any longer. After absorbing all the info I don't think I'll regret it for a second.

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:12 pm 

Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 4:23 pm
Posts: 6473
Location: Seattle, WA.
panten wrote:
I went and did it! pre-ordered Push tonight. I couldn't contain myself any longer. After absorbing all the info I don't think I'll regret it for a second.


You wont regret it. I'm excited

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:32 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:28 pm
Posts: 1324
lo.key wrote:
"But hoping for third party hacks and workarounds or software updates that will add features that the hardware was not designed for is less than ideal."

i disagree entirely. The ability to add custom hardware hacks is ENTIRELY the ideal.

But that's not what Push was made for, so my point was that already missing some basic features and hoping to compensate for that by whatever hacks and workarounds someone may come up with is less than ideal compared to already having those basic features (by which I mean the fully hands-on, mouseless hardware control over sampling/editing/non-destructive chopping/duplicating pads...etc. like you get out of the box with Maschine) in the first place. The ability to use custom hacks and remote scripts is nothing new or unique to Push or other Live-specific controllers. In fact, Maschine is already being used to do those things as well and is much more customization friendly because it comes with the Controller Editor whereas the Push doesn't even have an editor and you can't even change the pre-assigned notes.


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:14 pm 

Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:34 am
Posts: 128
Location: Poughkeepsie, NY
I guess this would be the thread to post to, if I wanted some experienced people to break my sudden infatuation with the QuNeo thingie:

http://www.keithmcmillen.com/QuNeo/overview

(I've only seen the videos, and I like the price.)

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:19 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:02 pm
Posts: 762
Location: South of London
I was under the impression that Push had a 'User Mode' which allows you to set it up the way you want. Not sure of the actual implications of this yet but seems quite interesting.
Check out Julian Bayle's blog. Specifically the part titled 'ABLETON PUSH USER MODE'
http://julienbayle.net/ableton-push/

delicioso I agree with the statement 'less than ideal'. I wish this stuff came out of the box with Push but I think it's a little unfair to call Max for Live devices a hack in a negative context. Live 9 suite has been heralded to come with Max and it's one of the strongest incentives to upgrade, I can certainly see the potential to bend Live to your will.
*edit* and as if by magic - https://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=190069

Push isn't even out yet and it's already being decompiled. I'm pretty sure there'll be some exciting user made changes to the scripts and M4L devices that unlock even more potential. Of course these sort of things aren't necessarily controller specific.

justjohn_jj: I had considered the QuNeo at one point but I heard that the pads felt really cheap and was immediately put off. The pads are THE most important aspect to these type of controllers and they get that wrong I will say a resounding NO THANKS.

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:55 pm 

Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:33 pm
Posts: 229
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
I got the maschine and had it for two weeks and returned it.

The work flow on the mashine is ok. but it can get confusing because really its new to every one. and it doesnt have the same work flow inside of ableton as a VST.

the install was a nightmare. took me three times to get it installed properly. and took about an hour and a half each time.

the only good thing about the maschine is the pads.

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:02 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:05 pm
Posts: 208
Paging delicioso to the thread in 3, 2, 1...


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:11 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:27 pm
Posts: 636
justchris86 wrote:
The work flow on the mashine is ok. but it can get confusing because really its new to every one.

What? :lol: Sorry but that makes no sense.

justchris86 wrote:
and it doesnt have the same work flow inside of ableton as a VST.

Yes, it does. Maschine has the same hands-on hardware workflow whether used in standalone mode or as a plugin.


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:28 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:02 pm
Posts: 762
Location: South of London
justchris86 wrote:
the only good thing about the maschine is the pads.

The pads are very nice indeed, but then so are the Push pads apparently :)

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:36 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:02 am
Posts: 3498
Location: Menasha, Wisconsin
I'll tell you this. Macros in Ableton Live are a hell of a lot more friendly. Maschine ONLY does 'relative' automation. But that can still be alright for some things. It just gets frustrating doing that in combination with the macros inside Maschine, and then mapping those macros to either another controller, Or Live macros.

When it comes to epic midi control, Live is a wide open book.

I kind of wish Maschine would let me create new Patterns via key. It will let me create new Scenes, but then those kind of make new Patterns. I don't know, I eventually got used to new Scenes mode, it is alright using that to transition patterns via a clip in Live, but Pattern change would be far more flexible for both music creation (who has the chops to switch patterns in Maschine While tapping out beats???) and song creation (switch to random fills without interrupting everything else).

Huge advantage in Maschine though is the nifty pattern-is-already-playing style of recording!!

And this vid rocks my socks:
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=YfrW5mwn ... frW5mwn90c


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:16 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:02 pm
Posts: 762
Location: South of London
Thanks for the vid share yur2die4, that's some impressive finger drumming alright.
I've never been that comfortable playing pads on a 4x4 grid and even watching that vid makes me feel claustrophobic. I think we're going to start seeing some impressive performances on the Push surface in the coming years.

On the other side of the spectrum, I just posted an idea/feature request on the beta forum and also here related to sample chopping and recording to pads using Push.
With a mockup image.
Image
Nothing will come of it but it's worth a try.

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:21 pm 

Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:29 pm
Posts: 118
justchris86 wrote:
I got the maschine and had it for two weeks and returned it.

The work flow on the mashine is ok. but it can get confusing because really its new to every one. and it doesnt have the same work flow inside of ableton as a VST.

the install was a nightmare. took me three times to get it installed properly. and took about an hour and a half each time.

the only good thing about the maschine is the pads.


I've installed Maschine and all of its contents twice in the last 3 or 4 months and both times were a breeze and taking little more than 20 minutes at most. I had more bother installing Live and all its packs (though even that wasn't much).

Im presuming my local music store in Edinburgh might not have Push stock tomorrow (or this week) so I won't let all the early adopters sway me (!) but Im currently planning on holding out to see how long NI take to bring a working Live 9 template to Maschine and to see if Push delivers a little bit more than from what Im seeing on Youtube right now.


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:22 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:02 am
Posts: 3498
Location: Menasha, Wisconsin
I like your imagination and determination!

If you want to try something fun on the side, try the Instant Sampler vst. Load it into an audio channel and add a new MIDI channel that routes to it.

I think it is by Muxer or something. Unfortunately, it won't let you save the buffer. Interestingly, you can use the Arpeggiator with it !!


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:42 am 

Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:32 pm
Posts: 1556
humnumb wrote:
kevwestbeats wrote:
There is no way to directly control clip length from the Maschine controller but I am not sure that there is any way without opening the editor window for that sequence with the mouse either.

I see that you're still comparing Maschine and Push as Live controllers but that doesn't make too much sense and is just causing more confusion in this discussion. Since Maschine as a whole (software + hardware) integrates well with Live (whether via drag&drop/export or as a plugin), it makes more sense to compare how much control each controller has over its own software. In the case of Maschine, it's pretty much total control, while in the case of Live & Push, it only covers a fraction of what the Maschine hardware can do for its own software.

So, for example, saying "There is no way to directly control clip length from the Maschine controller" without giving context that you're actually talking about the Live software and not the Maschine software, only adds to the confusion because Maschine has always been able to directly control clip length for its software from its controller, without ever touching the mouse.



Don't try to tell people what they want to talk about. I am also interested in exactly what he is talking about. And it is very clear for anyone paying attention.

To me, the strength of Push is that you are working in Live and not having another software layer (Maschine software).

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:57 am 

Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:32 pm
Posts: 1556
panten wrote:
If I were to use Maschine standalone or plugin does the workflow differ at all for getting the tracks into Live? One thing I'm worried about is that Maschine software isn't as elastic as Live, meaning, ability to push the sounds around with the warping engine.

Is it a case of recording each Maschine track in real-time to audio tracks or is there a freeze track ability?

I really wish I could just borrow a Maschine for a weekend and get all these workflow questions out of the way.
I was in my local music shop today and tried out Maschine with it's Software and it seemed very intuitive but at the same time very 'locked to the grid'

The more I think about these two controllers and what I want from them the more I lean towards Push. The potential I see from it is what is swaying me and it seems much more performance based. Good move on Ableton's part for choosing 64 smaller pads to play on, no more stretching while performing more complex rhythms.

I can't wait to see what Stray does once he gets his hands on it. Anyway I'm still not going to jump the gun and will wait for another couple of weekends


You should at least wait til Push is out and try it before making a decision...

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