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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:36 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:38 pm
Posts: 443
I've had maschine and spark. I know how well they work in live...which is about as good as any other controller. The added benefit of push (which I don't have yet) is more from the access to lives menus (which maschine does not have). Maschine only has access to its own. I am going somewhat by presumption based on demos I have SEEN, but also a lot on experience with other controllers.


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:45 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:27 pm
Posts: 636
dysanfel wrote:
I have a APC40, Impulse 25, Electribe MX, KP3, and some other hardware synths. Making beats on the Impulse's pads is a PITA, but I love the Automap rotaries and the keys. I don't chop samples very much, but I am good at it and would do it if it were fast and fun. I usually write my melodies on a keyboard, but I mainly come from a guitar background. I find the APC is really only useful for me after a song is finished, so I am looking for a controller to speed up my workflow when creating drum tracks, bass lines, and sketching out rough song structures. I want to be able to preview patches fast and manipulate/automate them in real time (filters ect). I also want to be able to create variations of ideas fast (drum fills) after I have a vibe going. More organic and less mousing, but mostly just more productive! I own Live 9 and make dark electro/house.

Push, Maschine, Spark, or MPC Studio?

Maschine seems to check all the boxes for what you're looking for:
- Most sensitive and responsive pads you'll find
- Plugin automapping (I find it better than Novation's Automap since you don't need to wrap plugins beforehand)
- Chopping samples is fast and fun (Push can't chop samples; MPC Studio software, like the Ren, is a crash-prone bug fest)
- Very fast hands-on workflow
- Allows you to go completely mouseless


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:59 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm
Posts: 23575
Location: SF, CA
skatr2 wrote:
I've had maschine and spark. I know how well they work in live...which is about as good as any other controller. The added benefit of push (which I don't have yet) is more from the access to lives menus (which maschine does not have). Maschine only has access to its own. I am going somewhat by presumption based on demos I have SEEN, but also a lot on experience with other controllers.

fair enough. I'm reading lots of strong opinions on a device that's not even out yet. same with Bitwig, lots of fanboys and haters but it's mostly people talking out their asses.

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:07 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:02 pm
Posts: 762
Location: South of London
humnumb wrote:
- Most sensitive and responsive pads you'll find
Do you think?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rxsPCF0j-4 especially 0:50 I'd say that's pretty sensitive/responsive wouldn't you?
humnumb wrote:
- Plugin automapping
Push also has this. I'm getting déjà vu
humnumb wrote:
- Very fast hands-on workflow
Push also looks like it will have a very nice/fast workflow, with some notable advantages that push does not when controlling Live.

Humnumb let's try not to be so biased with our appraisal of both hardware kits.
I'm sure Machine must have SOME disadvantages surely. Otherwise this debate would be over.

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:14 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:38 pm
Posts: 443
Tone Deft wrote:
skatr2 wrote:
I've had maschine and spark. I know how well they work in live...which is about as good as any other controller. The added benefit of push (which I don't have yet) is more from the access to lives menus (which maschine does not have). Maschine only has access to its own. I am going somewhat by presumption based on demos I have SEEN, but also a lot on experience with other controllers.

fair enough. I'm reading lots of strong opinions on a device that's not even out yet. same with Bitwig, lots of fanboys and haters but it's mostly people talking out their asses.


I generally don't talk out of my ass. But I can see how my statement could be misconstrued. Truth be told I have been impressed with the gains maschine has made as a controller for live. Its a good option for some...but using maschine was not an easy task in my opinion for controlling live. While it was simplistic in its layout, it felt complicated remembering which button or shift combo did what. The selling points like chopping don't work in the live side...its done from the maschine side. So you are still relying heavily on their software for all of its selling points. I personally only wanted VSTs for sound synthesis, not for doing all the jobs that I bought live for in the first place.

From all appearances from the demos, push seems like it will work well with my workflow and seems to have more straight forward operation with live. Whereas I felt like maschine has a more straight forward operation with its own software(understandably). The new template though in maschine does make the transition between live and maschine appear fairly well constructed. so I tip my hat to NI for actually taking the time to implement those changes. They were definitely needed.


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:36 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm
Posts: 23575
Location: SF, CA
TBH I'm pretty impressed by both. I lean towards Push because I'm already pretty tightly coupled with Live.

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oddstep wrote:
I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:52 pm 

Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 12:11 am
Posts: 63
dysanfel wrote:
I have a APC40, Impulse 25, Electribe MX, KP3, and some other hardware synths. Making beats on the Impulse's pads is a PITA, but I love the Automap rotaries and the keys. I don't chop samples very much, but I am good at it and would do it if it were fast and fun. I usually write my melodies on a keyboard, but I mainly come from a guitar background. I find the APC is really only useful for me after a song is finished, so I am looking for a controller to speed up my workflow when creating drum tracks, bass lines, and sketching out rough song structures. I want to be able to preview patches fast and manipulate/automate them in real time (filters ect). I also want to be able to create variations of ideas fast (drum fills) after I have a vibe going. More organic and less mousing, but mostly just more productive! I own Live 9 and make dark electro/house.

Push, Maschine, Spark, or MPC Studio?

Everything you said points to Maschine. I can say it's one of the most fun and inspiring instruments I've ever used. Plays well with Live too. Can't say enough positive things about it really.


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:04 pm 

Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:06 am
Posts: 394
skatr2 wrote:
but using maschine was not an easy task in my opinion for controlling live. While it was simplistic in its layout, it felt complicated remembering which button or shift combo did what. The selling points like chopping don't work in the live side...its done from the maschine side. So you are still relying heavily on their software for all of its selling points. I personally only wanted VSTs for sound synthesis, not for doing all the jobs that I bought live for in the first place.


If you compose your beats and such in Maschine can you easily get those tracks out of Maschine and into a Ableton track as MIDI or audio quickly, painlessly, and in sync? Especially automatically giving each Maschine track its own Live track. Do you have to do a real time bounce for audio? Are you bouncing individual tracks or all at once?

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:47 pm 

Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:41 am
Posts: 18
dysanfel wrote:
skatr2 wrote:
but using maschine was not an easy task in my opinion for controlling live. While it was simplistic in its layout, it felt complicated remembering which button or shift combo did what. The selling points like chopping don't work in the live side...its done from the maschine side. So you are still relying heavily on their software for all of its selling points. I personally only wanted VSTs for sound synthesis, not for doing all the jobs that I bought live for in the first place.


If you compose your beats and such in Maschine can you easily get those tracks out of Maschine and into a Ableton track as MIDI or audio quickly, painlessly, and in sync? Especially automatically giving each Maschine track its own Live track. Do you have to do a real time bounce for audio? Are you bouncing individual tracks or all at once?


for the most part, yes. you can just drag the audio/midi to a clip in ableton (make sure you have loop optimize turned on for the audio, though)


I think this brings up a good point in the push maschine debate: why would you want to go through this extra step of transferring the audio from maschine, when you could just make it live w/ push - I'm not saying one is better than the other (maybe the time it takes to move it from maschine is actually good for the creative process) just in terms of time it would certainly seem easier...


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:53 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:28 pm
Posts: 1324
dysanfel wrote:
If you compose your beats and such in Maschine can you easily get those tracks out of Maschine and into a Ableton track as MIDI or audio quickly, painlessly, and in sync? Especially automatically giving each Maschine track its own Live track. Do you have to do a real time bounce for audio? Are you bouncing individual tracks or all at once?

Yup. It's super easy and Maschine is flexible enough to cater to different workflows:

1. You can drag and drop as audio or MIDI of each group directly from within Maschine (whether used as plugin or in standalone mode) into Live. You can isolate tracks with Mute/Solo using this method.

2. You can just use Maschine by itself in standalone mode and do an audio export of the entire arrangement or a loop range and choose between individual tracks/group/stereo master. That gives you wav files in a folder that you can drag at once into a DAW.

3. You can load Maschine as a plugin in Live and route the audio of each track (you have 32 mono outs from Maschine) into each audio track in Live and do realtime tracking.

4. You can also load Maschine as a plugin and route the MIDI of each track and record into each MIDI track in Live: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=144164

5. You can also integrate Maschine and Live together without drag&drop/export/routing between the two. Here's one example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WcbjOm1uhY&t=02m55s


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:15 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:02 am
Posts: 3499
Location: Menasha, Wisconsin
That is one feature I'm kind of wishing Live had. Holding a render-spot on a clip or channel, and being able to drag it somewhere as a rendered wav would be a nice feature. ESPECIALLY for use back and forth between Maschine, Live, Traktor, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:24 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:02 pm
Posts: 762
Location: South of London
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=VMwIY57MHj0#t=295s
^^
This is one feature I'm really looking forward to using with Push. You can see that when jumping between bars it doesn't set the playback to the start position but continues scrolling through the bar. Now imagine creating a ton of separate loop variations and fills etc then playing that back and recording it to another track. It's going to spark creativity in the studio AND in live situations.

I can imagine that when others get into the new LOM we will see this functionality on other controllers but for the moment this is pretty unique to Push.

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:25 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:02 am
Posts: 3499
Location: Menasha, Wisconsin
Cool. So on their FAQ, I found this:

Quote:
Is Push's browsing only limited to Ableton devices? Or will it be possible to enter 3rd-party plug-ins (VST, AU) and presets into the library so that they can be browsed and loaded from Push?
Push is primarily focused to work with Ableton devices, it's what we have the most control over and the most knowledge of. With Ableton devices, we try to have the 8 Macros laid out in a consistent way - so you almost always know which encoder to grab for a specific parameter.

With plug-ins, we currently can't access parameters in an automatic and consistent way, so you would be left with a way to load a plug-in, but not control it automatically. The workaround for the moment is to save a plug-in within an Instrument or Effect Rack, with parameters laid out as you'd like. Push both sees these presets in it's browser and automatically maps to the device controls.


So, in combination with the auto populate of vst parameters via Options.txt..... This could seriously be badass for 3rd party vsts.

But most of all, aside from not yet having physically tested it out, the entire vst philosophy for Maschine vs. Push having any advantage in this regard is debunked. Not only that, if you want to be ridiculous, both require even the most basic modifications in Preferences in order to be available in the first place. And NEITHER can have their individual controls recustomized without the use of a mouse and a form of saving in advance.


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:00 pm 

Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:32 pm
Posts: 1556
humnumb wrote:
deva wrote:
Push is a realtime performance tool. It is not meant for construction of drum kits, synth presets, etc. That stuff is intended to be done with the mouse and computer screen.

Being a performance tool was not the focus of Push according to Ableton:
Quote:
I would like to know if Push creators see it as a performance tool too.

Sure, Push has obvious uses onstage, but we focus on the creation workflow first.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=186306



Same thing... By performance, I mean playing music, whether as a live performance or simply playing/composing in the studio... Push is for making music rather than construction of kits, presets, synth sounds, sample editing etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:05 pm 

Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:32 pm
Posts: 1556
Tone Deft wrote:
skatr2 wrote:
I've had maschine and spark. I know how well they work in live...which is about as good as any other controller. The added benefit of push (which I don't have yet) is more from the access to lives menus (which maschine does not have). Maschine only has access to its own. I am going somewhat by presumption based on demos I have SEEN, but also a lot on experience with other controllers.

fair enough. I'm reading lots of strong opinions on a device that's not even out yet. same with Bitwig, lots of fanboys and haters but it's mostly people talking out their asses.


I think Bitwig is not a good comparison. There have been dozens of Push videos posted online which show pretty clearly what it is and what it isn't. There have also been various people using it who have posted their opinions of the features, build quality, use experiences etc. It is not unreasonable to talk about Push based on the available info.

I ordered Push and maybe after 1 week from arrival I will not like it. Then I will sell it :) But at least feature-wise, it is appealing.

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