Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
deva
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Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by deva » Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:59 am

humnumb wrote:
yur2die4 wrote:I meant the availability Of a vst in the first place.

In both softwares, vsts are not available until you determine a root folder and make sure to install in that folder.
lol That's not what people mean when they say plugin automapping. It's about when you load a plugin, whether the parameters are automatically mapped.

Push has no automapping of plugins, period. You need to pre-configure each plugin beforehand, or save as a rack beforehand if you want changes and settings saved and recalled when you load that plugin again.

Maschine has automapping that just works. You load a plugin, the parameters are automatically mapped, and all the settings are saved and recalled when you load that plugin again.
The parameters are automatically mapped, but not in the way one wants. Some synths have many hundreds of parameters and Maschine does not know which I want to map and which I don't. And of course that changes per synth preset.

You keep speaking as if saving a rack is a bad thing. But it is a great thing. I like saving a rack because I can map the specific parameters/ranges I want for a specific preset to the rack macros. Lives racks are one of the superb features of Live and I make good use of them.

deva
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Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by deva » Thu Mar 28, 2013 7:03 am

yur2die4 wrote: Maschine still Does have a few advantages.
1. You can display the vst simply by pressing the title of it on the controller (this is assuming that you're into looking at the screen, which I do not mind :P). Live has no equivalent of that feature.
2. Maschine supports Komplete 8O . I think that speaks for itself....
3. Maschine supports more Pages of control, Live has 8.. ....actually, on my Novation, it scrolls up to the total amount. We'll have to see what Push supports.
1 - I don't understand what you mean with this one...
2 - Meaningless for me - I own Kontakt, Massive, Absynth and FM8... never use them and will never purchase Komplete.
3 - The last thing I want is to go back to small hardware displays where I have to scroll through various pages to get what I want. At that point I would just rather be looking at my regular monitor. The advantage of Push is that it is not using a different software layer, but is directly controlling Live. At any moment I can switch to Live instead of being in the Maschine software.


One big advantage of Push is direct control of session view. Push can display 8 tracks and 8 clips per track at once... This seems significant to me.

monohusche
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Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by monohusche » Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:49 am

I am kind of wondering how there can be 26 pages of discussion on whether Maschine or Push is better. I am not saying, there is a clear "winner" but there is clear pro's and con's which would lead one down a certain path...no convincing required

I own Maschine (and like it), but I am about to sell it and buy Push. Why ?

- I want to simplify my setup to only use Live as main DAW without going through an additional software layer. Yes of course, I can transition from Maschine to Live as Midi or Audio, but it adds to the complexity of the workflow, and in some case, will be a one-way street. Once I brought the midi into live (which still requires me to route between live and maschine as well as running the Maschine vst), how do I bring it back if I changed it in Live ?

- Running Maschine as vst in Live is more resource consuming than running Live suite with Push (assumption as I don't have push yet, but I know that as soon as I instantiate Maschine vst, my CPU consumption goes up)

- There is the whole aspect of learning/"mastering" two production tools (Live and Maschine), and don't tell me this is an insignificant topic given how many forum posts I find on both Maschine and Live forums.

- Maschine lets you browse Komplete, Push lets you browse Live 9 Suite. They both don't cover the other side. So yes, content wise, Komplete might be better than Live Suite, but not sure that applies to Komplete Elements (which comes with Maschine). And I am not willing to shell out for Live Suite, Maschine AND Komplete. So with Push and Live 9 Suite, there might be slightly less premium content, but it is probably cheaper than Live + Maschine + Komplete and doesn't require you to have a hybrid workflow.

- Both don't handle vst's (other than Native Instruments's own instruments) automatically, even though using racks allows you to have some influence via "wrapping"

So, just from a simplification perspective, if not wanting to do sample slicing, not requiring Komplete (Elements) and other NI content but having purchased Live 9 Suite, what would be the benefit of using Maschine within Live rather than Push on its own ?

Last but not least as has been mentioned, Ableton has the benefit of customizability via M4L which Maschine doesn't provide

Have I missed something ?

skatr2
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Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by skatr2 » Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:58 am

monohusche wrote:I am kind of wondering how there can be 26 pages of discussion on whether Maschine or Push is better. I am not saying, there is a clear "winner" but there is clear pro's and con's which would lead one down a certain path...no convincing required

I own Maschine (and like it), but I am about to sell it and buy Push. Why ?

- I want to simplify my setup to only use Live as main DAW without going through an additional software layer. Yes of course, I can transition from Maschine to Live as Midi or Audio, but it adds to the complexity of the workflow, and in some case, will be a one-way street. Once I brought the midi into live (which still requires me to route between live and maschine as well as running the Maschine vst), how do I bring it back if I changed it in Live ?

- Running Maschine as vst in Live is more resource consuming than running Live suite with Push (assumption as I don't have push yet, but I know that as soon as I instantiate Maschine vst, my CPU consumption goes up)

- There is the whole aspect of learning/"mastering" two production tools (Live and Maschine), and don't tell me this is an insignificant topic given how many forum posts I find on both Maschine and Live forums.

- Maschine lets you browse Komplete, Push lets you browse Live 9 Suite. They both don't cover the other side. So yes, content wise, Komplete might be better than Live Suite, but not sure that applies to Komplete Elements (which comes with Maschine). And I am not willing to shell out for Live Suite, Maschine AND Komplete. So with Push and Live 9 Suite, there might be slightly less premium content, but it is probably cheaper than Live + Maschine + Komplete and doesn't require you to have a hybrid workflow.

- Both don't handle vst's (other than Native Instruments's own instruments) automatically, even though using racks allows you to have some influence via "wrapping"

So, just from a simplification perspective, if not wanting to do sample slicing, not requiring Komplete (Elements) and other NI content but having purchased Live 9 Suite, what would be the benefit of using Maschine within Live rather than Push on its own ?

Last but not least as has been mentioned, Ableton has the benefit of customizability via M4L which Maschine doesn't provide

Have I missed something ?
pretty much nailed it. I shared many of the same thoughts and views every time I used my maschine. but just wait... certain people will select individual points of your opinions, pick em apart and declare their all holy machine the victor.

J0n35y
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Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by J0n35y » Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:41 pm

Jesus this has gone a bit eh? I havent been on the forum for a while and am amazed this has run on to 26 pages.

Neither is superior to the other and neither fits all cases. Depending on what software you have to date, how you use it, what your expectations are either Maschine will be the better bet or Push. It kind of reminds me of IGN's forum pages with people bickering about whether the PS3 is better than an XBox.

For me, I bought Maschine first on a whim, then Live 8/9 Suite and I am very happy with the combo. I don't really need Suite to be honest, Standard would have done but I do love Maschine. Would I have bought Push had it been available? I dunno. I own a solid keyboard controller that Im already decent with so Push would have been largely wasted on me.

Anyway, my position wasn't unique by any stretch but I can totally understand why some will be amazed at Push while others not (and same with Maschine). Neither trumps the other.

djlimbs
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Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by djlimbs » Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:20 pm

i had Maschine for about 3 years then sold it and i just got Push yesterday (so this is a first impressions report...my opinion will change prolly after a week...it happens to me a lot with gear!). Push is huge and heavy compared to Maschine. It feels very nice in the studio but I doubt I can bring this to work (where most of my tracks start) to play around with like I did w/ Masch. Maschine's browsing and sample hot-swapping also spoiled me for what Push can do. Push's browser is solid, but a little sluggish when hot swapping (maybe cause I'm using it through a hub, will try direct) and i think it'll work best building 128s in Sampler or an Instrument Rack (and I did have to build banks in Maschine's database for it to be good). For now I still prefer Maschine's way of laying down beats but I need to get used to Push's hardware layout and organize my samples to to work with Push to make a fair comparison. Push's note mode is really awesome. All in all, since I do a lot of my producing on a laptop at work instead of at my home studio, I'm not sure if I can get my money's worth outta Push - I tend to just use the qwerty keyboard these days in Ableton and have gotten really fast just with that + trackpad automation!

panten
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Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by panten » Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:42 pm

J0n35y wrote:Jesus this has gone a bit eh? I havent been on the forum for a while and am amazed this has run on to 26 pages.

Neither is superior to the other and neither fits all cases...
...Neither trumps the other.
Hey Jon35y yeah I'm a bit surprised that this thread has run for so many pages. I originally started it to try and help myself (and others who might be unsure) to understand the advantages and disadvantages of each controller. I never intended for it to be a Commodore vs Amiga style flame fest but these things naturally bring out the fanboys.

I personally can't afford to buy both controllers so rather than making a knee-jerk purchase when Push was announced I thought I'd try and understand what makes both controllers tick and decide based on which would be the best compliment for my preferred workflow. If it was an easy decision this thread wouldn't even exist.

They both have a lot of overlapping features in the Live environment so this is perhaps the reason why the thread has continued. I completely appreciate ALL the input and time that has gone into, what I consider to be, a good lively and healthy debate; one that has helped me reach a decision.

Anyway, I sat on the fence and tentatively dropped on the Push side in the end, not just for some of the more interesting features but also for what could potentially happen in the mod community. I predict some highly creative and fun to use mappings happening in the future.
Others will be in the same situation and may choose Maschine and it's all good. I will probably still covet some of the Maschine pros (completely and utterly mouse less humnumb) and I'll wait until I've had a good amount of hands on experience before deciding whether or not to get rid of my Axiom Pro 25 keyboard.

tecxx
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Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by tecxx » Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:56 pm

i think you have made the right decision.

i used maschine for a year, and the super tight integration into Komplete is just awesome. load vst, browse preset, knobs auto-mapped, done. just great. but for me, it ends about there.

i don't use any of the sampling features or related stuff, and the "daw" side of maschine is non-existent to me. first thing i did was to see how to implement it into my ableton live workflow..... which kind of defeats its purpose (for me).
with the release of push, i can remove that overhead complexity, i'm happy to be fully back in live and live only, with the one disatvantage of not beeing able to browse NI vst presets .... but hey, there is always hope for improvement ;)

djadonis206
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Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by djadonis206 » Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:06 pm

monohusche wrote:I am kind of wondering how there can be 26 pages of discussion on whether Maschine or Push is better. I am not saying, there is a clear "winner" but there is clear pro's and con's which would lead one down a certain path...no convincing required

I own Maschine (and like it), but I am about to sell it and buy Push. Why ?

- I want to simplify my setup to only use Live as main DAW without going through an additional software layer. Yes of course, I can transition from Maschine to Live as Midi or Audio, but it adds to the complexity of the workflow, and in some case, will be a one-way street. Once I brought the midi into live (which still requires me to route between live and maschine as well as running the Maschine vst), how do I bring it back if I changed it in Live ?

- Running Maschine as vst in Live is more resource consuming than running Live suite with Push (assumption as I don't have push yet, but I know that as soon as I instantiate Maschine vst, my CPU consumption goes up)

- There is the whole aspect of learning/"mastering" two production tools (Live and Maschine), and don't tell me this is an insignificant topic given how many forum posts I find on both Maschine and Live forums.

- Maschine lets you browse Komplete, Push lets you browse Live 9 Suite. They both don't cover the other side. So yes, content wise, Komplete might be better than Live Suite, but not sure that applies to Komplete Elements (which comes with Maschine). And I am not willing to shell out for Live Suite, Maschine AND Komplete. So with Push and Live 9 Suite, there might be slightly less premium content, but it is probably cheaper than Live + Maschine + Komplete and doesn't require you to have a hybrid workflow.

- Both don't handle vst's (other than Native Instruments's own instruments) automatically, even though using racks allows you to have some influence via "wrapping"

So, just from a simplification perspective, if not wanting to do sample slicing, not requiring Komplete (Elements) and other NI content but having purchased Live 9 Suite, what would be the benefit of using Maschine within Live rather than Push on its own ?

Last but not least as has been mentioned, Ableton has the benefit of customizability via M4L which Maschine doesn't provide

Have I missed something ?
Well said. I stopped using Maschine because it was pain to get my sequences out of Maschine into Live. The automation and swing doesn't transfer with the midi file. Sure, I could ressample the audio, but sometimes I'd like to keep my groove and fx in a midi file. This works with other drum samplers like Geist.

On the other hand. Push doesn't do per step automation. I've grown accustomed to this with my Elektrons (parameter locks) and Fxspansion's Geist. However, I have a feeling this is in the pipeline.
Ableton | Elektron

Music

glitchrock-buddha
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Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by glitchrock-buddha » Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:14 pm

djadonis206 wrote:
monohusche wrote:I am kind of wondering how there can be 26 pages of discussion on whether Maschine or Push is better. I am not saying, there is a clear "winner" but there is clear pro's and con's which would lead one down a certain path...no convincing required

I own Maschine (and like it), but I am about to sell it and buy Push. Why ?

- I want to simplify my setup to only use Live as main DAW without going through an additional software layer. Yes of course, I can transition from Maschine to Live as Midi or Audio, but it adds to the complexity of the workflow, and in some case, will be a one-way street. Once I brought the midi into live (which still requires me to route between live and maschine as well as running the Maschine vst), how do I bring it back if I changed it in Live ?

- Running Maschine as vst in Live is more resource consuming than running Live suite with Push (assumption as I don't have push yet, but I know that as soon as I instantiate Maschine vst, my CPU consumption goes up)

- There is the whole aspect of learning/"mastering" two production tools (Live and Maschine), and don't tell me this is an insignificant topic given how many forum posts I find on both Maschine and Live forums.

- Maschine lets you browse Komplete, Push lets you browse Live 9 Suite. They both don't cover the other side. So yes, content wise, Komplete might be better than Live Suite, but not sure that applies to Komplete Elements (which comes with Maschine). And I am not willing to shell out for Live Suite, Maschine AND Komplete. So with Push and Live 9 Suite, there might be slightly less premium content, but it is probably cheaper than Live + Maschine + Komplete and doesn't require you to have a hybrid workflow.

- Both don't handle vst's (other than Native Instruments's own instruments) automatically, even though using racks allows you to have some influence via "wrapping"

So, just from a simplification perspective, if not wanting to do sample slicing, not requiring Komplete (Elements) and other NI content but having purchased Live 9 Suite, what would be the benefit of using Maschine within Live rather than Push on its own ?

Last but not least as has been mentioned, Ableton has the benefit of customizability via M4L which Maschine doesn't provide

Have I missed something ?
Well said. I stopped using Maschine because it was pain to get my sequences out of Maschine into Live. The automation and swing doesn't transfer with the midi file. Sure, I could ressample the audio, but sometimes I'd like to keep my groove and fx in a midi file. This works with other drum samplers like Geist.

On the other hand. Push doesn't do per step automation. I've grown accustomed to this with my Elektrons (parameter locks) and Fxspansion's Geist. However, I have a feeling this is in the pipeline.
Pretty much the same story here. I'll be doing most drum machine type drums with Push now. However machine will still be good as a general slicer/sample and fx triggering unit. You can do lots of cool things with it like routing between pads and step automation so I think it'll still be good to have both. But machine will be a peripheral device now rather than a central beat making unit.
Professional Shark Jumper.

humnumb
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Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by humnumb » Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:35 pm

deva wrote:
yur2die4 wrote: Maschine still Does have a few advantages.
1. You can display the vst simply by pressing the title of it on the controller (this is assuming that you're into looking at the screen, which I do not mind :P). Live has no equivalent of that feature.
2. Maschine supports Komplete 8O . I think that speaks for itself....
3. Maschine supports more Pages of control, Live has 8.. ....actually, on my Novation, it scrolls up to the total amount. We'll have to see what Push supports.
1 - I don't understand what you mean with this one...
What yur2die4 means is that you can open/close plugin windows from the Maschine hardware.
deva wrote:The advantage of Push is that it is not using a different software layer, but is directly controlling Live. At any moment I can switch to Live instead of being in the Maschine software.
Nope. Maschine can directly control Live without the Maschine software.
deva wrote:One big advantage of Push is direct control of session view. Push can display 8 tracks and 8 clips per track at once... This seems significant to me.
Not if you already have Live controllers like Launchpad or iPad controller like TouchAble, Griid, LiveControl, Lemur Mu...etc.

skatr2
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Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by skatr2 » Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:44 pm

humnumb wrote:
deva wrote:
yur2die4 wrote: Maschine still Does have a few advantages.
1. You can display the vst simply by pressing the title of it on the controller (this is assuming that you're into looking at the screen, which I do not mind :P). Live has no equivalent of that feature.
2. Maschine supports Komplete 8O . I think that speaks for itself....
3. Maschine supports more Pages of control, Live has 8.. ....actually, on my Novation, it scrolls up to the total amount. We'll have to see what Push supports.
1 - I don't understand what you mean with this one...
What yur2die4 means is that you can open/close plugin windows from the Maschine hardware.
deva wrote:The advantage of Push is that it is not using a different software layer, but is directly controlling Live. At any moment I can switch to Live instead of being in the Maschine software.
Nope. Maschine can directly control Live without the Maschine software.
deva wrote:One big advantage of Push is direct control of session view. Push can display 8 tracks and 8 clips per track at once... This seems significant to me.
Not if you already have Live controllers like Launchpad or iPad controller like TouchAble, Griid, LiveControl, Lemur Mu...etc.
If someone already has and uses all those or machine well, then they wouldn't be in this thread or worried about push. Get the hell off it already! Machine is more than capable of controlling live. But its by no means superior...just a different work flow. Why buy a softsynth where you do some work on one side....then other work in the other...then have to merge it all together later?! That's the argument we have with machine.

humnumb
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Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by humnumb » Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:15 pm

monohusche wrote:- I want to simplify my setup to only use Live as main DAW without going through an additional software layer. Yes of course, I can transition from Maschine to Live as Midi or Audio, but it adds to the complexity of the workflow, and in some case, will be a one-way street. Once I brought the midi into live (which still requires me to route between live and maschine as well as running the Maschine vst), how do I bring it back if I changed it in Live ?
Just so it's clear, no additional software layer is needed for Maschine to control Live. Maschine can directly control Live without the Maschine software.

As far as using Maschine and Live together, it's not complex at all. In fact, people love Maschine for its simplicity and intuitiveness and how it can seamlessly integrate with other software with features like drag & dropping directly. Some might get confused at first because Maschine is flexible enough to cater to very different workflows: viewtopic.php?p=1496108#p1496108
monohusche wrote:- There is the whole aspect of learning/"mastering" two production tools (Live and Maschine), and don't tell me this is an insignificant topic given how many forum posts I find on both Maschine and Live forums.
It is very important to learn/master one tool at a time for sure. That's true no matter what tools you're talking about. The great thing about Maschine is that it's very intuitive and has a very low learning curve.
monohusche wrote:- Maschine lets you browse Komplete, Push lets you browse Live 9 Suite. They both don't cover the other side. So yes, content wise, Komplete might be better than Live Suite, but not sure that applies to Komplete Elements (which comes with Maschine).
Actually, Maschine can control Live devices too. Maschine's exclusive Komplete integration does apply to Komplete Elements as well.
monohusche wrote:- Both don't handle vst's (other than Native Instruments's own instruments) automatically, even though using racks allows you to have some influence via "wrapping"
Not true at all. Maschine does handle third party plugins (not just NI's own instruments) automatically.
monohusche wrote:Have I missed something ?
Yup. Many other points have already been covered in this thread: viewtopic.php?p=1495757#p1495757
Most notable is the fact that Maschine gives you an option for a completely hands-on, hardware-based workflow where you never have to touch a mouse or even look at the computer screen.

blinkeye
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Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by blinkeye » Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:27 pm

J0n35y wrote:For me, I bought Maschine first on a whim, then Live 8/9 Suite and I am very happy with the combo. I don't really need Suite to be honest, Standard would have done but I do love Maschine. Would I have bought Push had it been available? I dunno. I own a solid keyboard controller that Im already decent with so Push would have been largely wasted on me.
Pretty much the same story here. I'm very happy with Maschine and Live already and I have absolutely no interest in Push at all.

deva
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Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by deva » Thu Mar 28, 2013 7:50 pm

humnumb wrote:
deva wrote:
yur2die4 wrote: Maschine still Does have a few advantages.
1. You can display the vst simply by pressing the title of it on the controller (this is assuming that you're into looking at the screen, which I do not mind :P). Live has no equivalent of that feature.
2. Maschine supports Komplete 8O . I think that speaks for itself....
3. Maschine supports more Pages of control, Live has 8.. ....actually, on my Novation, it scrolls up to the total amount. We'll have to see what Push supports.
1 - I don't understand what you mean with this one...
What yur2die4 means is that you can open/close plugin windows from the Maschine hardware.
deva wrote:The advantage of Push is that it is not using a different software layer, but is directly controlling Live. At any moment I can switch to Live instead of being in the Maschine software.
Nope. Maschine can directly control Live without the Maschine software.
deva wrote:One big advantage of Push is direct control of session view. Push can display 8 tracks and 8 clips per track at once... This seems significant to me.
Not if you already have Live controllers like Launchpad or iPad controller like TouchAble, Griid, LiveControl, Lemur Mu...etc.
1- There is no reason why I would want to open a plug-in window from hardware. If I am opening the window, it is to edit, which I would do on the screen in the first place.

2- Sure Maschine can be a Live controller, but then it is not having all the functionality of the Maschine software. It is disingenuous to tout both without mentioning they cannot be had together.

3- Well, I don't already have those controllers. Since Maschine only has a 4x4 grid, Maschine by itself is inferior to Push with its 8x8 grid. With Push, without having to switch pages, you have 8 tracks with 8 clips per track, plus scene launch buttons. Maschine you have to do multiple page switching to do this.

This is a very real advantage of Push over Maschine. As is being a 64 note midi 'keyboard' with ribbon controller. So to match these capabilities in Push with Maschine I also have to purchase a launchpad, plus a 61 note keyboard controller as well as Maschine.

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