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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:45 am 

Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:10 pm
Posts: 9998
pretty surprised that Novation hadn't come up with something yet...
Launchpad "256" would've done it for me...

I think people are going all fanboi on both sides...
"whichever rocks your boat" is the correct answer..

Maschine is a new take on an older format.. done very well according to many people(including me)
while push is the most elaborate control script + hardware.. to be developed for Live itself a modern and elegant music making app imo
one doesn't come instead of the other..
it's like a discussion whether a pan flute is better than a harmonica

I can say this though..quite objectively
Mascine is PERFECT and ONLY match for it's software..
both were designed to match.. and this gives it more of an 'instrument feel'
Live can host numerous 'control surfaces' (Mascine included) and has an API for interfacing MIDI with it's parameters... so it is a lot more abstract.. and gives you the ability to build elaborate setups which can cover most anyones needs..
when you throw m4l in the mix.. it can even get crazier..

Push can be emulated with APC or Launchpad (minus touchstrip and aftertouch)
the current push script implementation is indeed very cool.. but there's a lot to do there still...
it is definitely not the perfect script for Live.. for many reasons
only the best officially developed so far..and it's still a work in progress..

both can work well together..

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:03 am 

Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 12:11 am
Posts: 63
3dot... wrote:
I think people are going all fanboi on both sides...
"whichever rocks your boat" is the correct answer..

Maschine is a new take on an older format.. done very well according to many people(including me)
while push is the most elaborate control script + hardware.. to be developed for Live itself a modern and elegant music making app imo
one doesn't come instead of the other..
it's like a discussion whether a pan flute is better than a harmonica

I can say this though..quite objectively
Mascine is PERFECT and ONLY match for it's software..
both were designed to match.. and this gives it more of an 'instrument feel'
Live can host numerous 'control surfaces' (Mascine included) and has an API for interfacing MIDI with it's parameters... so it is a lot more abstract.. and gives you the ability to build elaborate setups which can cover most anyones needs..
when you throw m4l in the mix.. it can even get crazier..

Push can be emulated with APC or Launchpad (minus touchstrip and aftertouch)
the current push script implementation is indeed very cool.. but there's a lot to do there still...
it is definitely not the perfect script for Live.. for many reasons
only the best officially developed so far..and it's still a work in progress..

both can work well together..

Very well put.


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:12 am 

Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm
Posts: 23565
Location: SF, CA
indeed. props 3dot...

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:02 am 

Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:32 pm
Posts: 1685
panten wrote:
yur2die4, damn so you have your shiny new Push already. I received a call from my store today telling me it's ready to be picked up but I'm 500 miles away visiting family in Scotland aargh! I only get to see them once a year now so this plastic controller can wait :)

If you don't mind; in what way is Maschine snappier? Are you talking about latency or something or is it workflow?


@humnumb. I really disagree and think that the 8x8 is a major selling point to Push.
1. In instrument mode you have more octaves to play over
2. In drum rack mode you have instant access to 16 drum pads + step sequencing + real-time looped bar selection/juggling
3. Session mode 8x8 grid of clip slot selections.


I don't think that can be so flippantly dismissed considering how boxed in you are on the 4x4 with Maschine or to compensate for it's lack of surface with rather unstable ipad apps. Touchable was so crashy as to be almost unusable on my ipad 3.

I personally dislike using the touch screen for this type of control and much prefer more tactile responsive pads and knobs. The same can be said for replacing the Push scales mode with an ipad app. You just won't get the same feedback from a flat glass screen as you would with lovely rubbery buttons :). I thought most people would get that.



I used an iPad for a couple months and didn't particularly like it. The touch screen is finicky and it was too easy to err. Make the controls larger then there is not that much room on it. Also, I found timing troublesome.

Not to mention the cost of the iPad which added to the cost of Maschine starts to get up there! And an iPad and a Maschine still does not address the advantage of Push being a 64 notes velocity and aftertouch sensitive controller. More than the cost, I like the simplicity of having fewer devices, less software, less to remember.

These are all useful tools, but Push has a feature set I like. The 64 pads are important but it also has the displays (unlike the Launchpad). It is not as if Push is something really new, but it is a new set of particular features which fill a niche that nothing else quite does. I have one on order but am glad it is not shipping for a good while. That way all the people getting them now can be the test subjects. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 6:14 am 

Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:28 pm
Posts: 164
3dot... wrote:
I can say this though..quite objectively
Mascine is PERFECT and ONLY match for it's software..
both were designed to match.. and this gives it more of an 'instrument feel'

Yup. There's never been quite anything like it before where the computer software and the hardware controller become one with each other to the extent that Maschine does and gives it that "hardware instrument feel". Such a concept is not new but the way NI executed it is what makes it such a game changer. It's because Maschine is all about the software and the hardware having been designed together from the ground up to be whole and inseparable from each other.

Push, in comparison, was more of an afterthought solution tacked on to an already existing software that's been long established. And Live is more of a proper mouse-centric DAW with a very deep and heavy feature set and much more open-ended possibilities for configuring all sorts of crazy elaborate setups, especially if you have M4L. I'm sure there will be a bunch hacks and scripts for Push cobbled together in no time for those who love to tinker with geeky toys.

There's nothing "wrong" with either approach of course and neither is superior/inferior over the other but the difference is very clear. There's just no need for a fanboy war though. You can choose one over the other, use both together, or use neither. /shrug


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:08 pm 

Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:32 pm
Posts: 1685
blinkeye wrote:
3dot... wrote:
I can say this though..quite objectively
Mascine is PERFECT and ONLY match for it's software..
both were designed to match.. and this gives it more of an 'instrument feel'

Yup. There's never been quite anything like it before where the computer software and the hardware controller become one with each other to the extent that Maschine does and gives it that "hardware instrument feel". Such a concept is not new but the way NI executed it is what makes it such a game changer. It's because Maschine is all about the software and the hardware having been designed together from the ground up to be whole and inseparable from each other.

Push, in comparison, was more of an afterthought solution tacked on to an already existing software that's been long established. And Live is more of a proper mouse-centric DAW with a very deep and heavy feature set and much more open-ended possibilities for configuring all sorts of crazy elaborate setups, especially if you have M4L. I'm sure there will be a bunch hacks and scripts for Push cobbled together in no time for those who love to tinker with geeky toys.

There's nothing "wrong" with either approach of course and neither is superior/inferior over the other but the difference is very clear. There's just no need for a fanboy war though. You can choose one over the other, use both together, or use neither. /shrug



Game changer? Hardly... There are whole areas of music creation where Maschine is not even a footnote. And there are lots of people who prefer hardware who don't like it because it is tethered to the computer. And lots of people have purchased, used it, then sold it cause it did not suit them. Maschine is one more useful capable product in a wide range of products from hardware beatboxes to hardware workstations to software DAW's.

The constant Maschine hyperbole is pushy propaganda.

"Maschine is all about the software and the hardware having been designed together from the ground up to be whole and inseparable from each other"

If they are so inseparable then why are some touting it as a fine controller for Live? I guess it is not that 'whole and inseparable' is it... The way some people talk about it reminds me of the literature from the religious types who come to the front door.


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:38 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:27 am
Posts: 736
Maschine has turned out to be agreat controller for me but using it in stand alone started to change my music. Don't have time to dig into specifics....

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:31 pm 

Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 4:23 pm
Posts: 6486
Location: Seattle, WA.
Either do it or don't.

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:30 pm 

Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:10 pm
Posts: 9998
I don't understand why people seem to have a hard time accepting other users' experiences...
weird..
sure Maschine is simply a controller + software... but it's well specd/developed and executed..
the MPC (or any other digital instrument for that matter)is also a controller + software (flashed to internal embedded electronics)

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:44 pm 

Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:06 am
Posts: 425
cmreal04 wrote:
Maschine has turned out to be agreat controller for me but using it in stand alone started to change my music. Don't have time to dig into specifics....


Now you have me curious how it changed your music.

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 3:41 am 

Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 12:11 am
Posts: 63
humnumb wrote:
I prefer the iPad controller apps for launching session view clips where you can actually see the name of each clip you're triggering. And I still have Maschine for tactile responsive pads and knobs.

Yeah, I already have the best of both worlds with Maschine and iPad so I have absolutely zero interest in something like Push.

Really looking forward to LiveControl2 though!: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8i42MASJ7S0


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 3:53 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:27 pm
Posts: 636
Wow, so first honest impressions of the Push are starting to come in and it's not a good sight. Push doesn't even have access to all parameters of Live's own devices 8O :

Valyo wrote:
The biggest turn off for me is that you can't really edit all the parameters of the synths. There appears to be a selection of important parameters but that really doesn't work for me. I use Operator extensively and inside out, and there isn't a way to control something as fundamental as the waveform of the oscillators!!!! So if you load the deafault patch and you don;t wannna use the mouse, all you've got is sine waves. Of course, I know that there is a way to map that to a macro, blablabla, but that's not the point. If you are following the dictum 'create songs from scratch' it is fundamental that you are able to control all of the parameters of the synths. Otherwise, what do you end up with? Using pre-programmed presets? Thanks, but no thanks! Or alternatively you have to spend time first designing the sounds you want to use, and then turn to Push just to play around, record some automation, etc. Sorry, but for me and for many other users the sound design is an essential part of the creative process. Otherwise, this device is just aimed at preset flicker type of 'producers'. I think it should not be such an issue to implement all of the parameters in the Push interface - sure you'll have to go back and forth between menus, but that's much preferable than having to spend separately some time with the mouse making sounds and then putting them to creative use. With time I can imagine getting really fast finding the parameters I need. And really what's the problem of having simply more pages of menus on the Push interface? (I am sure there is even a clever way to implement the powerful additive features of Operator of being able to build custom wave forms within push - it takes 4 fields - harmonic No, Harmonic level, next harmonic, previous harmonic) Anyway, I sincerely hope Ableton figures this out, becuase that's a major turn down.
I use Operator and Analog extensively and the way I work is by starting with a blank patch and creating the sound up to my taste and what works in the context of my track. I'm not interested in any presets.
Other minus points go for Drum racks limitations - like - there should be a way to control everything that you can do on the screen. Like creating nested effect chains and sending signals from each of the sample slots. Also, when you're building, a drum rack from scratch, the hot-swap function should work like it works in Live. When you click the Browse button and you are able to flick with the up and down green buttons, you should be able to hear the samples just by going up and down, and not having to load the samples. It should work like it does on the screen when you hit the hotswap button and you can flick witht he arrow keys to listen to the samples. I know it may seem like a minor point, but this slows down the workflow tremendously.
A big minus point goes also to the step sequencer mode when you want to edit the velocity of the notes. Why show relative changes in the value? what does this bring me, I can't figure out...just show the 1-127 values. I wanted to create some interesting ghost notes type of fills and I found it impossible to work with this relative values - if I know which note is playing at what velocity it would easier.
I sincerely hope these are all a matter of software tweaks and they will be implemented in future updates. If I have to be very crude, I'd say at it's current state Push is pretty much useless for advanced sound design type of work, when it comes even to the native Ableton instruments and devices. I won't even start with third party VSTs.


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 5:28 pm 

Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:05 pm
Posts: 360
valyo wrote:
spend time first designing the sounds you want to use, and then turn to Push just to play around


personally, i find this workflow is the most productive way to go, to prevent getting lost in the weeds while composing. Spend time on sound design and critical editing, and then once you have a set of instruments made, sit down and compose on then with a creative mindset. To me, to combine the two is like sitting down and building yourself a new guitar before each new creative session, which seems counterproductive. But your mileage may vary.


a question though, you are using the 'in' arrow button for the operator patch, to see other parameters of the synth?


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 6:07 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:02 pm
Posts: 883
Location: South of London
humnumb wrote:
Wow, so first honest impressions of the Push are starting to come in and it's not a good sight. Push doesn't even have access to all parameters of Live's own devices

OMG is this true? I am SO selling my Push now.


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 7:43 pm 

Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:41 am
Posts: 19
Load an instance of Massive from Maschine and what are Maschine's first 8 parameters set to?... that's right, Massive's macro controls - if you want a synth with physical knobs for every parameter get a hardware synth! But wait a minute you say, I can't get a moog to sound like Reaktor and forget about an integration comparison - so I'll make straw men out of my music making tools so I can have an excuse to not make music until someone (anyone but me) leads me by the hand and around this impasse.


Last edited by aldentinnin on Sat Mar 30, 2013 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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