Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
yur2die4
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Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by yur2die4 » Sun Mar 31, 2013 8:54 pm

I like when someone posts asking how to do something in Live, and he offers Maschine as the solution :P Quite dedicated. I think I can admire that a little bit. It'd be like if I asked how to tie my shoes and he suggested Velcro haha

lo.key
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Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by lo.key » Sun Mar 31, 2013 9:12 pm

humnumb wrote:"living dialog", eh? Sounds like something inspired by easter sunday. Too many hard-boiled eggs in your system, perhaps? :lol:
what an odd thing to say.

humnumb wrote:Anyway, I think the issue is that posters like deva, skatr2, panten, et al. have just been rehashing the same argument with each post. It's pretty frustrating to just keep hearing the same things from them.
well, now you know how we feel.

panten
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Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by panten » Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:18 pm

lo.key wrote:
humnumb wrote:"living dialog", eh? Sounds like something inspired by easter sunday. Too many hard-boiled eggs in your system, perhaps? :lol:
what an odd thing to say.
humnumb wrote:Anyway, I think the issue is that posters like deva, skatr2, panten, et al. have just been rehashing the same argument with each post. It's pretty frustrating to just keep hearing the same things from them.
I feel quite offended (well maybe just a little) at that statement. I think the majority of the guys on this thread seem pretty flexible with their discourse with the exception of yourself (humnumb) and to a lesser extent delicioso. I'm quite curious actually as to the reason for your personal vendetta against not just Push but seemingly everything non-Maschine if in direct competition. What is that all about? It's very obsessive behaviour.

humnumb: You have good knowledge of Maschine but your inability to have a conversation is frustrating.

I'm fairly certain that everyone now gets the line;
The bottomline is that Maschine as an integrated software/hardware combo has very real advantages over Live and Push when it comes to things like the ability to have a completely mouseless workflow, having total control of pretty much every feature of the software, plugin automapping, exclusive Komplete preset support, a hands-on sample chopping workflow such as being able to sample directly to a pad, duplicate those pads, slicing, waveform editing from the hardware...etc.
In fact if I have to read it one more time I might just gouge my eyeballs out with a spoon.

humnumb
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Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by humnumb » Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:30 pm

panten, the bottomline is that Maschine as an integrated software/hardware combo has very real advantages over Live and Push when it comes to things like the ability to have a completely mouseless workflow, having total control of pretty much every feature of the software, plugin automapping, exclusive Komplete preset support, a hands-on sample chopping workflow such as being able to sample directly to a pad, duplicate those pads, slicing, waveform editing from the hardware...etc.

yur2die4
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Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by yur2die4 » Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:35 pm

How am I supposed to compare products with only one bottom line? :P

skatr2
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Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by skatr2 » Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:38 pm

humnumb wrote:panten, the bottomline is that Maschine as an integrated software/hardware combo has very real advantages over Live and Push when it comes to things like the ability to have a completely mouseless workflow, having total control of pretty much every feature of the software, plugin automapping, exclusive Komplete preset support, a hands-on sample chopping workflow such as being able to sample directly to a pad, duplicate those pads, slicing, waveform editing from the hardware...etc.
And the bottom line is douchebags like you have nothing beneficial to offer this board or the world in general short of a sales pitch for a product you can't come to grips that others really didn't care for. Carry on troll!

Tone Deft
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Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by Tone Deft » Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:43 pm

skatr2 wrote:
humnumb wrote:panten, the bottomline is that Maschine as an integrated software/hardware combo has very real advantages over Live and Push when it comes to things like the ability to have a completely mouseless workflow, having total control of pretty much every feature of the software, plugin automapping, exclusive Komplete preset support, a hands-on sample chopping workflow such as being able to sample directly to a pad, duplicate those pads, slicing, waveform editing from the hardware...etc.
And the bottom line is douchebags like you have nothing beneficial to offer this board or the world in general short of a sales pitch for a product you can't come to grips that others really didn't care for. Carry on troll!
skatr2, the bottomline is that Maschine as an integrated software/hardware combo has very real advantages over Live and Push when it comes to things like the ability to have a completely mouseless workflow, having total control of pretty much every feature of the software, plugin automapping, exclusive Komplete preset support, a hands-on sample chopping workflow such as being able to sample directly to a pad, duplicate those pads, slicing, waveform editing from the hardware...etc.
oddstep wrote:I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"

panten
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Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by panten » Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:47 pm

..and with that this thread is officially dead in the water. Congrats trolls

3dot...
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Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by 3dot... » Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:03 am

so did he get Maschine or push ?
I wonder what are the advantages..
Image

skatr2
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Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by skatr2 » Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:14 am

Tone Deft wrote:
skatr2 wrote:
humnumb wrote:panten, the bottomline is that Maschine as an integrated software/hardware combo has very real advantages over Live and Push when it comes to things like the ability to have a completely mouseless workflow, having total control of pretty much every feature of the software, plugin automapping, exclusive Komplete preset support, a hands-on sample chopping workflow such as being able to sample directly to a pad, duplicate those pads, slicing, waveform editing from the hardware...etc.
And the bottom line is douchebags like you have nothing beneficial to offer this board or the world in general short of a sales pitch for a product you can't come to grips that others really didn't care for. Carry on troll!
skatr2, the bottomline is that Maschine as an integrated software/hardware combo has very real advantages over Live and Push when it comes to things like the ability to have a completely mouseless workflow, having total control of pretty much every feature of the software, plugin automapping, exclusive Komplete preset support, a hands-on sample chopping workflow such as being able to sample directly to a pad, duplicate those pads, slicing, waveform editing from the hardware...etc.
And with statements like that, you don't get the debate. The strengths of machine are in the mouseless flow only. I've given it plenty of credit for these capabilities. But where it fails is its limited workflow. For me as a user it wasn't what I wanted and I found no easy way to make it work with live at the time. Live is a better application as a whole for sound designers who don't want a bunch of presets and don't give a crap about Automap.

From what I saw of push videos it was marketed as a tool to play like an instrument. In every instance they loaded premade racks to show the capabilities of it...not manipulate sound or a vast amount of parameters. They were even up front in these with a huge faq by testers. But douchebags like numbnuts feed accusations of it being less than expected like a salesman trying to make everyone consider his own brand when those of us who have tried it saw no personal benefit. He will latch onto anything negative to make this point. Truth is maschine by itself still SUCKS for full length song creation(still relies on full sized draws to export audio to) and lacks in ability to support a serious live environment...both where live by itself succeeds. It is only good as an environment for jotting ideas and getting direction...which is exactly why push is useful for those of us who didn't like maschine's workflow.

Your favorite toys not for everyone and its not as "intuitive" as you all make it out to be.

dysanfel
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Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by dysanfel » Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:20 am

So which one was better? 8O

Just kidding. I am going to hold off for a few more months before I buy either. However, I really would like to own a Maschine.
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Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by panten » Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:30 am

3dot... wrote:so did he get Maschine or push ?
I wonder what are the advantages..
Push, because LOADS of famous people use it.

blinkeye
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Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by blinkeye » Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:31 am

skatr2 wrote:Live is a better application as a whole for sound designers who don't want a bunch of presets
Disagree. The truth is that the real answer is going to be a purely subjective one for everyone. I personally prefer Maschine (which is not at all about presets by the way) for sound design because of its inherent hands-on nature. There's something about the immediacy of having all the tactile controls at your fingertips that encourages a certain process and end result that I might not get if I keep getting interrupted by having to grab a mouse or what have you. As much as some people keep going on and on about the mouseless nature of Maschine, there is definitely something there that suits the workflow of many people, especially for sound design.

skatr2
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Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by skatr2 » Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:44 am

blinkeye wrote:
skatr2 wrote:Live is a better application as a whole for sound designers who don't want a bunch of presets
Disagree. The truth is that the real answer is going to be a purely subjective one for everyone. I personally prefer Maschine (which is not at all about presets by the way) for sound design because of its inherent hands-on nature. There's something about the immediacy of having all the tactile controls at your fingertips that encourages a certain process and end result that I might not get if I keep getting interrupted by having to grab a mouse or what have you. As much as some people keep going on and on about the mouseless nature of Maschine, there is definitely something there that suits the workflow of many people, especially for sound design.
I can agree to disagree with the view that its all subjective. Especially with workflow. At least I can be a bigger man than numbnuts and acknowledge that every environment doesn't work for everyone and be ok with how I work. I've given plenty of credit....truth be told all he has is his "bottom line" to cling to.

humnumb
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Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

Post by humnumb » Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:45 am

skatr2 wrote:Live is a better application as a whole for sound designers who don't want a bunch of presets and don't give a crap about Automap.
skatr2, are you forgetting this critique from a Live user who is being honest about the sound design capability of Live from Push? Hmm?:
Valyo wrote:The biggest turn off for me is that you can't really edit all the parameters of the synths. There appears to be a selection of important parameters but that really doesn't work for me. I use Operator extensively and inside out, and there isn't a way to control something as fundamental as the waveform of the oscillators!!!! So if you load the deafault patch and you don;t wannna use the mouse, all you've got is sine waves. Of course, I know that there is a way to map that to a macro, blablabla, but that's not the point. If you are following the dictum 'create songs from scratch' it is fundamental that you are able to control all of the parameters of the synths. Otherwise, what do you end up with? Using pre-programmed presets? Thanks, but no thanks! Or alternatively you have to spend time first designing the sounds you want to use, and then turn to Push just to play around, record some automation, etc. Sorry, but for me and for many other users the sound design is an essential part of the creative process. Otherwise, this device is just aimed at preset flicker type of 'producers'. I think it should not be such an issue to implement all of the parameters in the Push interface - sure you'll have to go back and forth between menus, but that's much preferable than having to spend separately some time with the mouse making sounds and then putting them to creative use. With time I can imagine getting really fast finding the parameters I need. And really what's the problem of having simply more pages of menus on the Push interface? (I am sure there is even a clever way to implement the powerful additive features of Operator of being able to build custom wave forms within push - it takes 4 fields - harmonic No, Harmonic level, next harmonic, previous harmonic) Anyway, I sincerely hope Ableton figures this out, becuase that's a major turn down.
I use Operator and Analog extensively and the way I work is by starting with a blank patch and creating the sound up to my taste and what works in the context of my track. I'm not interested in any presets.
Other minus points go for Drum racks limitations - like - there should be a way to control everything that you can do on the screen. Like creating nested effect chains and sending signals from each of the sample slots. Also, when you're building, a drum rack from scratch, the hot-swap function should work like it works in Live. When you click the Browse button and you are able to flick with the up and down green buttons, you should be able to hear the samples just by going up and down, and not having to load the samples. It should work like it does on the screen when you hit the hotswap button and you can flick witht he arrow keys to listen to the samples. I know it may seem like a minor point, but this slows down the workflow tremendously.
A big minus point goes also to the step sequencer mode when you want to edit the velocity of the notes. Why show relative changes in the value? what does this bring me, I can't figure out...just show the 1-127 values. I wanted to create some interesting ghost notes type of fills and I found it impossible to work with this relative values - if I know which note is playing at what velocity it would easier.
I sincerely hope these are all a matter of software tweaks and they will be implemented in future updates. If I have to be very crude, I'd say at it's current state Push is pretty much useless for advanced sound design type of work, when it comes even to the native Ableton instruments and devices. I won't even start with third party VSTs.

skatr2 wrote:Truth is maschine by itself still SUCKS for full length song creation(still relies on full sized draws to export audio to)
Yeah, I've got a full sized drawer right here that I export all the time.
skatr2 wrote:and lacks in ability to support a serious live environment...
I guess deadmau5 is a fool for using Maschine to support his live environment then or are you saying his live environment is not serious enough for you?

Image

Is skatr2 really suggesting that these live environments are not serious enough for him?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugnSmDu4a3c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xmn8TvFqEGY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egPncQ36G-w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZxcWIe3lO0
Last edited by humnumb on Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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