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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:44 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:28 pm
Posts: 1324
You can put in all the patterns you want to access from the pattern browser at once in seconds, instead of doing it one by one.

It makes sense that NI associated the official factory/expansion patterns with their respective kits because there's not gonna be a one size fits all standard for where to assign which type of samples on a kit anyway. Once you load a kit with a pattern, you can swap out different samples or keep changing the kit with a different one while the same pattern is playing.

As far as patterns that come with demo songs, the reason that you may come across small patterns with those is because you get the actual patterns the way it was used to construct that demo song, more to show how each particular demo song was put together rather than them being starting point patterns.


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:49 am 

Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:28 pm
Posts: 190
Location: Hongkong
beats me wrote:
All I’m saying is don’t advertise something has 100 patterns and then there’s nothing in the pattern browser.

It’s like saying something has 3,000 samples but none of them appear in the sample browser until you manually add them one by one.

And I realize Komplete is a little more complex but I don’t get patterns having to be tied to kits. It’s not like you have a pattern for kick, snare, and hats but as soon as you load a different kit those notes are going to trigger all crashes, cowbells, and blocks. A snare note should be a snare note no matter what drum kit you load.

I’ll get over this, but it’s generally one of the first features I test drive when I get a drum plug-in with a sequencer and I thought the lack of patterns in the pattern browser meant something didn’t install properly or I needed to configure something.

And really which is a user more likely to use, snippets from an entire demo song or quality patterns that aren’t tied to any included song? A lot of the patterns included in the songs are laughable as a preset pattern. It’s really not that difficult to program a 4 count hat or kick. So one argument is you only save the patterns you think you’d use. My argument is 100 patterns should be quality, not 20 interesting usable patterns and 80 patterns of fluff or something a monkey could tap in with quantization turned on.

This thread inspires long winded bitching. I can't wait until a graduate to personal attacks. :P


It's definitely long winded, so I can't help to think that we haven't understood your root issue here.

When you do drums, you need primarily two things: a kit (sounds) and a pattern (triggering of sounds). For me, the sound selection is more fundamental, hence I start with selecting/auditioning kits. There is obviously a significant difference between an acoustic kit and a glitch or found sounds kit.

Once I found a nice kit, Maschine will also load dedicated patterns for that kit. I can then go, and change the patterns, and obviously, I can change single sounds and the whole kit later as well. But the key point is that I don't start searching for a pattern before I have found a kit. There is also a lot of situations where a pattern mostly makes sense in the context of a specific kit, e.g. having broken beats, rapid fire etc. could be more appropriate for a glitch/minimal kit rather than an acoustic kit.

Now, I could imagine, people which are more "traditional"/acoustic minded (rather than experimental) could see this the other way around. Like a drummer in a band who will use the same/similar kits every day, the sound selection might not be so important, the pattern is key. Not sure though what music you make.

But in any case, when you start with a clean slate using e.g. Addictive Drums and you start browsing through your patterns, how do you audition them without having selected a kit ? A pattern is just a soundless Midi file. So how do you make sure (in AD) that the kit "fits" the pattern you have selected. Maybe the pattern doesn't appeal to you during browsing because you are using the "wrong" kit ?

As for the other complaint, have you actually done as suggested before and loaded a KIT/group rather than a full demo song, and looked at the patterns that come with the kit ? My experience has been that these patterns are somewhat elaborate (not "two oneshots in a four bar loop").

I am fairly certain that if you would load all the kits in your expansion pack (which one are you referring to ?) one by one and counted the patterns associated with each kit, you would find that there indeed 100 patterns. So why not advertise that ?

It has already been confirmed that there is a scenario which Maschine doesn't cover "out of the box" (I believe), which is loading an individual pattern only. The suggestions and content provided do address that, but again, this might not be so important for most electronic music producers.


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:14 am 

Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2002 3:52 am
Posts: 731
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Here is where Ableton really shines (and the main reason I bought it) I needed fast Middle Eastern tracks to accompany Flamenco. All the ME tracks are in 4/4; most of the Flamenco I like is in 3/4. So I had a huge number of 4/4 loops, and I chopped off the last beat (sometimes the first, etc...) and Voila! 3/4 loops.

Using them in Ableton is super smooth - I could just drag and drop them, and ableton would slice and timestretch them perfectly in 3/4 - changing tempo is super, super smooth, no artifacts at all.

I am new at Maschine, but so far I have to slice the loop, which is then chopped, and does not sound natural at all when played back, even at the original tempo. It may be there is another method of doing this in Maschine, since I am very new at this, but Ableton was SO easy. And I can drop anything I create in Machine directly into a loop in Live, and not have to bring the controller along to perform.....

Nothing I've tried is even CLOSE to Ableton Live in that functionality....

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Scales and chords: viewtopic.php?f=55&t=202364


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:25 am 

Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:28 pm
Posts: 164
Buleriachk wrote:
Here is where Ableton really shines (and the main reason I bought it) I needed fast Middle Eastern tracks to accompany Flamenco. All the ME tracks are in 4/4; most of the Flamenco I like is in 3/4. So I had a huge number of 4/4 loops, and I chopped off the last beat (sometimes the first, etc...) and Voila! 3/4 loops.

Using them in Ableton is super smooth - I could just drag and drop them, and ableton would slice and timestretch them perfectly in 3/4 - changing tempo is super, super smooth, no artifacts at all.
You can easily do all kinds of odd time signatures in Maschine. The metronome and swing changes accordingly as well. Where Ableton shines is in the use of the elastique audio warping engine which Maschine doesn't have yet although you can use plugins that do realtime tiemstretch like Kontakt or Reaktor.

Buleriachk wrote:
I am new at Maschine, but so far I have to slice the loop, which is then chopped, and does not sound natural at all when played back, even at the original tempo. It may be there is another method of doing this in Maschine, since I am very new at this, but Ableton was SO easy.
You don't use slice for that. Just use Maschine's timestretch for that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U45jBA_IKfs&t=01m09s

Maschine's current offline timestretch algorithm works almost instantly and is super high quality. No artifacts.

Buleriachk wrote:
And I can drop anything I create in Machine directly into a loop in Live, and not have to bring the controller along to perform.....
Well, you don't need the controller to use the Maschine software either.


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:22 am 

Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:02 pm
Posts: 762
Location: South of London
Is Maschine's timestretching non-destructive like Live's?

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:48 am 

Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 12:11 am
Posts: 63
panten wrote:
Is Maschine's timestretching non-destructive like Live's?
Currently Maschine has top quality offline timestretch built-in which is non-destructive. It doesn't overwrite the original in the process, and it's easy to undo. Maschine will be getting realtime timestretch like Live though, probably for 2.0.


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:40 am 

Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:38 pm
Posts: 443
blinkeye wrote:
Buleriachk wrote:
Here is where Ableton really shines (and the main reason I bought it) I needed fast Middle Eastern tracks to accompany Flamenco. All the ME tracks are in 4/4; most of the Flamenco I like is in 3/4. So I had a huge number of 4/4 loops, and I chopped off the last beat (sometimes the first, etc...) and Voila! 3/4 loops.

Using them in Ableton is super smooth - I could just drag and drop them, and ableton would slice and timestretch them perfectly in 3/4 - changing tempo is super, super smooth, no artifacts at all.
You can easily do all kinds of odd time signatures in Maschine. The metronome and swing changes accordingly as well. Where Ableton shines is in the use of the elastique audio warping engine which Maschine doesn't have yet although you can use plugins that do realtime tiemstretch like Kontakt or Reaktor.

Buleriachk wrote:
I am new at Maschine, but so far I have to slice the loop, which is then chopped, and does not sound natural at all when played back, even at the original tempo. It may be there is another method of doing this in Maschine, since I am very new at this, but Ableton was SO easy.
You don't use slice for that. Just use Maschine's timestretch for that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U45jBA_IKfs&t=01m09s

Maschine's current offline timestretch algorithm works almost instantly and is super high quality. No artifacts.

Buleriachk wrote:
And I can drop anything I create in Machine directly into a loop in Live, and not have to bring the controller along to perform.....
Well, you don't need the controller to use the Maschine software either.


You can probably take every point he made toward his daw and apply it to any number of daws. But please note the maschine slappys feel inclined to STILL make it about themselves on a competitors forum. No value added in this post. Let me know when maschine can actually make a full track without the help of a real daw ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:29 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:02 pm
Posts: 762
Location: South of London
onestep wrote:
panten wrote:
Is Maschine's timestretching non-destructive like Live's?
Currently Maschine has top quality offline timestretch built-in which is non-destructive. It doesn't overwrite the original in the process, and it's easy to undo.

That's not really what I meant by non-destructive, that's called creating a new file for each timestretch function that you perform.
You can do the same thing with Live by consolidating and flattening the clip but you don't need to as Live's Warp engine is truly non-destructive and real-time.

onestep wrote:
Maschine will be getting realtime timestretch like Live though, probably for 2.0.
Is that something that NI have announced? Interesting times.

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:52 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 6:39 pm
Posts: 19400
Location: San Jose, CA
:!:

Gentlemen, I’ve had a breakthrough. I was doing most of my bitching at work without Maschine in front of me. But I fired up Maschine last night, and I honestly don’t know what I was doing differently, but I saw how the patterns are tied to the kits. Before I didn’t seem to get any even with the “load patterns with kit” button checked.

But now that I’m getting them I’m not all that impressed with them. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:55 pm 

Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:28 pm
Posts: 190
Location: Hongkong
beats me wrote:
:!:

Gentlemen, I’ve had a breakthrough. I was doing most of my bitching at work without Maschine in front of me. But I fired up Maschine last night, and I honestly don’t know what I was doing differently, but I saw how the patterns are tied to the kits. Before I didn’t seem to get any even with the “load patterns with kit” button checked.

But now that I’m getting them I’m not all that impressed with them. :lol:


at last! I can go to bed then...:-)


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:16 pm 

Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:06 am
Posts: 394
I hate that those patterns appear when I load a kit. I delete them immediately. I bought a Maschine for me to create beats, not for someone else to do it for me. If I wanted pre-made beats I would use loops. I just make my own kits now, which is probably the best thing to do anyway.

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Home Rig - 27' iMac i7 2.8Ghz Quad, 12GB RAM, 256GB SSD, Apogee Duet, Live 9.x, Logic 9.x


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:20 pm 

Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:06 am
Posts: 394
skatr2 wrote:
Let me know when maschine can actually make a full track without the help of a real daw ;)


How do you define a "full track"?

_________________
Gig Rig - rMBP 2.3GHZ i7, 16GB RAM, 256GB SSD, OSX 10.8.x, Presonus FP10, Live 9.x, PRS CE22, Boogie Mk. IV.

Home Rig - 27' iMac i7 2.8Ghz Quad, 12GB RAM, 256GB SSD, Apogee Duet, Live 9.x, Logic 9.x


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:21 pm 

Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:28 pm
Posts: 164
skatr2 wrote:
Let me know when maschine can actually make a full track without the help of a real daw

What? :lol:

Maschine can make a full track without the help of a DAW.


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:22 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:28 pm
Posts: 1324
panten wrote:
onestep wrote:
Maschine will be getting realtime timestretch like Live though, probably for 2.0.
Is that something that NI have announced? Interesting times.

Yup. They announced it as part of their development roadmap a while ago.


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:35 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:28 pm
Posts: 1324
dysanfel wrote:
I hate that those patterns appear when I load a kit. I delete them immediately. I bought a Maschine for me to create beats, not for someone else to do it for me. If I wanted pre-made beats I would use loops. I just make my own kits now, which is probably the best thing to do anyway.
I never even touch the premade patterns. You know that you never have to load patterns when you load a kit, right? Just make sure the PATT button above the right LCD is not selected when you're loading a kit.


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