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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:18 pm 

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:05 am
Posts: 257
Location: Seattle
glitchrock-buddha wrote:
As an Ableton Live user, I think the best options are Either get both, use t hem for what they are good for, or only get Push. I don't think it would be wise to get Maschine as a primary controller. As a Live controller you just can't compare the 16 pads to 64, and the other functions in Push specific to Live. It's all about the Maschine software being used with it's hardware.

If your'e cool with drum racks, and doing sample editing in the usual mouse fashion, then Push will be perfect. If you want that extra control of drums, one-shot samples and sliced loops from a dedicated controller, then add Maschine.

I have Maschine and I'll be picking up Push. What I'm not sure about yet is how much I'll use Drum Racks for my Drum tracks. The way Push handles them looks impressive to me. The Maschine integration is still lacking to me (exposed automation parameters, the way of linking patterns to clips etc.). It might be nice to simplify a bit and use Drum Racks more with Push. For slicing though I still don't like Live's methods. I'll keep using Maschine or Kontakt.

What can Push do in Live specific that Maschine cannot do? I ask because you probably have more experience with the Live/Maschine combo than I do. I have been doing complete instrumentals in Live using my akai miniak and maschine as my controllers. I do have to use the mouse to open up plug ins with maschine but I would have to do that with Push too. I don't do much automation either. And I don't use the Live devices much at all either. Is there something I missed?

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:21 pm 

Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:29 am
Posts: 4369
Location: The Ableton Live Forum
kevwestbeats wrote:
glitchrock-buddha wrote:
As an Ableton Live user, I think the best options are Either get both, use t hem for what they are good for, or only get Push. I don't think it would be wise to get Maschine as a primary controller. As a Live controller you just can't compare the 16 pads to 64, and the other functions in Push specific to Live. It's all about the Maschine software being used with it's hardware.

If your'e cool with drum racks, and doing sample editing in the usual mouse fashion, then Push will be perfect. If you want that extra control of drums, one-shot samples and sliced loops from a dedicated controller, then add Maschine.

I have Maschine and I'll be picking up Push. What I'm not sure about yet is how much I'll use Drum Racks for my Drum tracks. The way Push handles them looks impressive to me. The Maschine integration is still lacking to me (exposed automation parameters, the way of linking patterns to clips etc.). It might be nice to simplify a bit and use Drum Racks more with Push. For slicing though I still don't like Live's methods. I'll keep using Maschine or Kontakt.

What can Push do in Live specific that Maschine cannot do? I ask because you probably have more experience with the Live/Maschine combo than I do. I have been doing complete instrumentals in Live using my akai miniak and maschine as my controllers. I do have to use the mouse to open up plug ins with maschine but I would have to do that with Push too. I don't do much automation either. And I don't use the Live devices much at all either. Is there something I missed?


Are you asking from the point of view of using it as a Session View controller? Or as Drum/Instrument controller?

If comparing them as Live controllers, Push can of course browse the Live browser and do other Live specific things (like functions on clips etc.) that Maschine wouldn't be able to do when being used as a Live controller. But it's also about what Push does better, such as the overall mixer control and layout (since Push was made for Live), and the whole melodic instrument control and the larger number of clips etc. Also the drum rack sequencing. Maschine has it's own sequencer but if you want to sequence directly into Live clips, the Maschine won't do that. And that's where the Push advantage is for people who mostly want to use Live's built-in functions. It integrates with it.

But if you're comparing them as sequencing software/hardware, then Maschine has it's own Browser and similar (better in most ways) functionality, internal sequencing atc. but these are only benefits when using Maschine with it's dedicated software, which means you're using it as a device, be it for drums, slicing, sample triggering or whatever. In this regard, there isn't really anything that Push does within Ableton that Maschine can't do in it's own dedicated software. But you can't really compare the units themselves without comparing the software that it supports. Ableton can do many other things that Maschine can't. But that's no reflection on either hardware unit.

I guess my point is that you can't really compare the two units on their own. As an Ableton user deciding between the two hardware units, it comes down to comparing:
1-Live + Push
2-Live + Maschine plug-in + Maschine
3-Live + Push + Maschine plug-in + Maschine

So although I think Maschine is a better Drum Sampler/Sample slicer and you can do a lot more with the hardware in terms of those sampling functions, I'd probably still take Push if I could have only one, because of what it adds to the overall Ableton workflow. So I would chose between 1 and 3 above.

Since I already have Maschine, the thing I'm curious about is; I wonder if I'll just enjoy using Drum Racks with Push rather than Maschine with it's software. Some things that I like the idea of with Push for Drum controller are:
-I like the sequencing steps being available at the same time as the trigger pads. That's cool. An dthe fact that you get 32 at once instead of 16.
-Notes go right into a clip. You don't have to assign a program change or a note value to a pattern like in Maschine and then put in that note/program change in the clip you want to fire that pattern.
-All parameters are automatable in Live directly (in the track and the clip now). Maschine you get the 8 macros per group.

But the things I don't like compared to Maschine:
-Slicing is more messy in Live. You can do a lot less on a single track. But I don't do that much slicing I guess. And there's always group tracks.
-You only get 8 macros for the entire drum rack! At least a Maschine device has 8 groups, each with 8 macros. Maybe a MaxforLive device could be made for the sole purpose of being a big drum rack mixer/parameter mapping device.

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:59 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:28 pm
Posts: 1324
kevwestbeats wrote:
I do have to use the mouse to open up plug ins with maschine but I would have to do that with Push too.

Not true. You can open and close plugin windows from just the Maschine hardware without ever touching the mouse. The Push (or any other Live controller) does not have this ability.


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:14 pm 

Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:19 am
Posts: 14
The main thing that Im interested in, is mapping modes and scales across the pads. I dont find Live to be intuitive software at all. The Machine software otoh is intuitive and fun. The controller feels wonderful. But NI's decision to focus on Maschines integration with Traktor and add rgb lighting was a disappointment to me. The simple, thoughtful design of the Push controller is enough to bring me onboard with Live. But its not due out until April. Id jump on a used Maschine as there are, doubtless, many to be had. Unless of course, youre a Live user. Than its obvious.. youll want to sit tight until Push becomes available. Suggest you pre-order, as well.



panten wrote:
I was almost completely sold on the forthcoming Push controller until I saw this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnP1RM788Z4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

It seems pretty comprehensive and is what I've been trying to do with my MPD32 since I got it.

The Maschine is really enticing, not only for the amazingly sensitive jelly pads but for that mouseless workflow that humbnumb/emptysea keeps banging on about. (unfortunately the more someone seems to go on about something the more I resent their viewpoint. Pigheadedness on my part)

The answer to my questions related to the Maschine Plugin for Live might just tip me in it's favour.

    Can the Plugin instance of Maschine within Live still record from any Audio source and assign to Pads in realtime while the audio is playing back?

    How many instances of Maschine are people able to run before things start to turn sluggish? is there a need to run multiple instances?

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:58 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:27 pm
Posts: 636
rgrambo wrote:
Unless of course, youre a Live user. Than its obvious.. youll want to sit tight until Push becomes available.

No, it really isn't. As it's quite evident already if you compare what each device actually does as covered in this thread, it doesn't make much sense to consider them as being mutually exclusive or as replacement for the other. Superficial similarities aside, they each bring very different and unique strengths to the table. I think part of the confusion is that some Live users only view Maschine as an option for a Live controller (probably due to the fact that some people do use Maschine as their primary controller for Live), completely ignoring Maschine's flexibility and its ability to integrate with Live in different ways depending on your preferred workflow, like this for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WcbjOm1uhY

Maschine and Live actually complement each other very well, especially since Maschine offers a fast, hands-on mouseless workflow that you just can't get in Live, and Live offers things like native realtime audio warping and many other deep features.


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:35 pm 

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:05 am
Posts: 257
Location: Seattle
delicioso wrote:
kevwestbeats wrote:
I do have to use the mouse to open up plug ins with maschine but I would have to do that with Push too.

Not true. You can open and close plugin windows from just the Maschine hardware without ever touching the mouse. The Push (or any other Live controller) does not have this ability.

In the Live software or in the Maschine software? I am talking about not opening plug ins in Maschine and running Maschine like any other plug in in Live and using the Maschine controller to control live. I would love to do this but I do not see anything about controlling Live's browser using Maschine. Would like to see it happen though. I'm assuming someone will make this happen with a template for 9

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:47 pm 

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:05 am
Posts: 257
Location: Seattle
glitchrock-buddha wrote:
kevwestbeats wrote:
glitchrock-buddha wrote:
As an Ableton Live user, I think the best options are Either get both, use t hem for what they are good for, or only get Push. I don't think it would be wise to get Maschine as a primary controller. As a Live controller you just can't compare the 16 pads to 64, and the other functions in Push specific to Live. It's all about the Maschine software being used with it's hardware.

If your'e cool with drum racks, and doing sample editing in the usual mouse fashion, then Push will be perfect. If you want that extra control of drums, one-shot samples and sliced loops from a dedicated controller, then add Maschine.

I have Maschine and I'll be picking up Push. What I'm not sure about yet is how much I'll use Drum Racks for my Drum tracks. The way Push handles them looks impressive to me. The Maschine integration is still lacking to me (exposed automation parameters, the way of linking patterns to clips etc.). It might be nice to simplify a bit and use Drum Racks more with Push. For slicing though I still don't like Live's methods. I'll keep using Maschine or Kontakt.

What can Push do in Live specific that Maschine cannot do? I ask because you probably have more experience with the Live/Maschine combo than I do. I have been doing complete instrumentals in Live using my akai miniak and maschine as my controllers. I do have to use the mouse to open up plug ins with maschine but I would have to do that with Push too. I don't do much automation either. And I don't use the Live devices much at all either. Is there something I missed?


Are you asking from the point of view of using it as a Session View controller? Or as Drum/Instrument controller?

If comparing them as Live controllers, Push can of course browse the Live browser and do other Live specific things (like functions on clips etc.) that Maschine wouldn't be able to do when being used as a Live controller. But it's also about what Push does better, such as the overall mixer control and layout (since Push was made for Live), and the whole melodic instrument control and the larger number of clips etc. Also the drum rack sequencing. Maschine has it's own sequencer but if you want to sequence directly into Live clips, the Maschine won't do that. And that's where the Push advantage is for people who mostly want to use Live's built-in functions. It integrates with it.

But if you're comparing them as sequencing software/hardware, then Maschine has it's own Browser and similar (better in most ways) functionality, internal sequencing atc. but these are only benefits when using Maschine with it's dedicated software, which means you're using it as a device, be it for drums, slicing, sample triggering or whatever. In this regard, there isn't really anything that Push does within Ableton that Maschine can't do in it's own dedicated software. But you can't really compare the units themselves without comparing the software that it supports. Ableton can do many other things that Maschine can't. But that's no reflection on either hardware unit.

I guess my point is that you can't really compare the two units on their own. As an Ableton user deciding between the two hardware units, it comes down to comparing:
1-Live + Push
2-Live + Maschine plug-in + Maschine
3-Live + Push + Maschine plug-in + Maschine

So although I think Maschine is a better Drum Sampler/Sample slicer and you can do a lot more with the hardware in terms of those sampling functions, I'd probably still take Push if I could have only one, because of what it adds to the overall Ableton workflow. So I would chose between 1 and 3 above.

Since I already have Maschine, the thing I'm curious about is; I wonder if I'll just enjoy using Drum Racks with Push rather than Maschine with it's software. Some things that I like the idea of with Push for Drum controller are:
-I like the sequencing steps being available at the same time as the trigger pads. That's cool. An dthe fact that you get 32 at once instead of 16.
-Notes go right into a clip. You don't have to assign a program change or a note value to a pattern like in Maschine and then put in that note/program change in the clip you want to fire that pattern.
-All parameters are automatable in Live directly (in the track and the clip now). Maschine you get the 8 macros per group.

But the things I don't like compared to Maschine:
-Slicing is more messy in Live. You can do a lot less on a single track. But I don't do that much slicing I guess. And there's always group tracks.
-You only get 8 macros for the entire drum rack! At least a Maschine device has 8 groups, each with 8 macros. Maybe a MaxforLive device could be made for the sole purpose of being a big drum rack mixer/parameter mapping device.

I am asking from the pov of using maschine as a drum machine in ableton in terms of maybe how someone would use an mpc side by side with live and also using it as a control surface. You can control clips and compose into clips using the maschine controller as well. Go to keyboard mode from the controller and you can control whatever you like note wise in Live. I just don't see a way of creating tracks, opening or browsing plug ins loaded in live, browsing live devices (there might be but i don't really use Live devices.), editing midi and a few other things from the maschine controller. i am not saying maschine is perfect its not but i don't feel Push is either. I am hoping that maybe you have found out something about using the Maschine controller in your time with it (Ive only had Maschine for a week) that I haven't yet. It seems fairly straight forward.

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:52 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:02 am
Posts: 3497
Location: Menasha, Wisconsin
I am proud to say that I am looking forward to having both items in my collection :P

Push's on screen display, despite not showing waveforms, is still a massive gateway. In Live, I'd say that 96% of the effects and synths I use are native Live devices. Having everything nicely labelled, and being able to skim through all the fx of a channel sounds like a dream.

And the much sought after clip deletion in session view.

I forget, can you only navigate into one device in each drum rack slot, or can you dig??

Lastly, has anyone attempted to make a more elegant Mackie mode template? I would love if someone was able to make a combination template that allowed users to use a Maschine Eatriwave style script (changed midi channels to allow use of Mackie controls), and the Mackie mode. .....and on top of that, still having the option to switch pad groups.


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:20 am 

Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:28 pm
Posts: 1324
kevwestbeats wrote:
delicioso wrote:
kevwestbeats wrote:
I do have to use the mouse to open up plug ins with maschine but I would have to do that with Push too.

Not true. You can open and close plugin windows from just the Maschine hardware without ever touching the mouse. The Push (or any other Live controller) does not have this ability.

In the Live software or in the Maschine software? I am talking about not opening plug ins in Maschine and running Maschine like any other plug in in Live and using the Maschine controller to control live. I would love to do this but I do not see anything about controlling Live's browser using Maschine. Would like to see it happen though. I'm assuming someone will make this happen with a template for 9

I'm not talking about when controlling Live from Maschine's hardware. I'm talking about when controlling the Maschine software with the Maschine hardware, where you can indeed open and close plugin windows from just the Maschine hardware.

Maschine doesn't have complete control over Live's software like it does with its own software, when used as a Live controller but this would still be the case with things like opening/closing plugins no matter what controller you use with Live, including Push.

If you're running Maschine as a plugin in Live, any plugin hosted inside Maschine can have its GUI window opened and closed from just the Maschine hardware.


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:54 am 

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:05 am
Posts: 257
Location: Seattle
delicioso wrote:
kevwestbeats wrote:
delicioso wrote:
Not true. You can open and close plugin windows from just the Maschine hardware without ever touching the mouse. The Push (or any other Live controller) does not have this ability.

In the Live software or in the Maschine software? I am talking about not opening plug ins in Maschine and running Maschine like any other plug in in Live and using the Maschine controller to control live. I would love to do this but I do not see anything about controlling Live's browser using Maschine. Would like to see it happen though. I'm assuming someone will make this happen with a template for 9

I'm not talking about when controlling Live from Maschine's hardware. I'm talking about when controlling the Maschine software with the Maschine hardware, where you can indeed open and close plugin windows from just the Maschine hardware.

Maschine doesn't have complete control over Live's software like it does with its own software, when used as a Live controller but this would still be the case with things like opening/closing plugins no matter what controller you use with Live, including Push.

If you're running Maschine as a plugin in Live, any plugin hosted inside Maschine can have its GUI window opened and closed from just the Maschine hardware.

but you missed my point and made an argument that was out of context. I am not saying you cannot do those things in the Maschine software. I never said that you couldn't in the Maschine software. I said you cannot do those things in Live from the Maschine controller. Personally I only use the maschine software for hosting drum sounds and chopping loops. Anything else I would rather do in Live like mixing, plug in hosting, sequencing and arranging ect. because Live is better at that than Maschine is. Besides I use Reason a lot too and I would like to work it into the workflow also and the rewire vst sucks and maschine doesn't support rewire and Reason doesn't support vst using Live as a middle ground makes too much sense.

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:28 am 

Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:28 pm
Posts: 1324
kevwestbeats wrote:
but you missed my point and made an argument that was out of context. I am not saying you cannot do those things in the Maschine software. I never said that you couldn't in the Maschine software. I said you cannot do those things in Live from the Maschine controller.

No. I didn't miss your point or take what you said out of context. You just weren't being very clear by just saying "I do have to use the mouse to open up plug ins with maschine" without clarifying which software you were referring to. If you had initially said "you cannot do those things in Live from the Maschine controller", it would have cleared up any confusion.

kevwestbeats wrote:
Personally I only use the maschine software for hosting drum sounds and chopping loops. Anything else I would rather do in Live like mixing, plug in hosting, sequencing and arranging ect. because Live is better at that than Maschine is.

I disagree that Live is better at those things but I also hate using the mouse so that's a big factor for me. Also, my use of Maschine is not just limited to just drum sounds/chopping loops. Live obviously has a linear arrangment view but I prefer to move over to a more full-featured DAW like Logic when it comes to mixing.


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:40 pm 

Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:29 am
Posts: 4369
Location: The Ableton Live Forum
kevwestbeats wrote:
I am asking from the pov of using maschine as a drum machine in ableton in terms of maybe how someone would use an mpc side by side with live and also using it as a control surface. You can control clips and compose into clips using the maschine controller as well. Go to keyboard mode from the controller and you can control whatever you like note wise in Live.

You can not sequence into Live clips, nor control many aspects like clip length etc. Push can. Maschine of course does all this to it's own clips, but better.

kevwestbeats wrote:
I just don't see a way of creating tracks, opening or browsing plug ins loaded in live, browsing live devices (there might be but i don't really use Live devices.), editing midi and a few other things from the maschine controller. i am not saying maschine is perfect its not but i don't feel Push is either. I am hoping that maybe you have found out something about using the Maschine controller in your time with it (Ive only had Maschine for a week) that I haven't yet. It seems fairly straight forward.


Ya. It's great as it's own device, but I wouldn't want to use it instead of something like Push for controlling live's session view and using as an instrument etc. It's just not meant as an Ableton Live control surface, just scripted to basics where it fits.

I have to say, I'm looking forward to using Push as an all-in-one device. I could use it on my couch while my laptop is hooked up to my main speakers for example and I'm using a wireless keyboard and mouse with a big screen TV. My current setup is Maschine for Drums, APC40 for Session control and Keys for melodic stuff. I'll always use keys of course, but the idea of just using the one controller to be able to do a bunch of stuff when I'm not sitting at my desk is appealing to me. I spend enough time sitting at a desk in my office job, I'm never keen to sit at my desk at home!

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:40 pm 

Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:47 am
Posts: 516
glitchrock-buddha wrote:
My current setup is Maschine for Drums, APC40 for Session control and Keys for melodic stuff.


i do the same, but i use my launchpad for keys (full tones are lightened up) so i am using my LP like push will be.

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:09 pm 

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:05 am
Posts: 257
Location: Seattle
glitchrock-buddha wrote:
kevwestbeats wrote:
I am asking from the pov of using maschine as a drum machine in ableton in terms of maybe how someone would use an mpc side by side with live and also using it as a control surface. You can control clips and compose into clips using the maschine controller as well. Go to keyboard mode from the controller and you can control whatever you like note wise in Live.

You can not sequence into Live clips, nor control many aspects like clip length etc. Push can. Maschine of course does all this to it's own clips, but better.

kevwestbeats wrote:
I just don't see a way of creating tracks, opening or browsing plug ins loaded in live, browsing live devices (there might be but i don't really use Live devices.), editing midi and a few other things from the maschine controller. i am not saying maschine is perfect its not but i don't feel Push is either. I am hoping that maybe you have found out something about using the Maschine controller in your time with it (Ive only had Maschine for a week) that I haven't yet. It seems fairly straight forward.


Ya. It's great as it's own device, but I wouldn't want to use it instead of something like Push for controlling live's session view and using as an instrument etc. It's just not meant as an Ableton Live control surface, just scripted to basics where it fits.

I have to say, I'm looking forward to using Push as an all-in-one device. I could use it on my couch while my laptop is hooked up to my main speakers for example and I'm using a wireless keyboard and mouse with a big screen TV. My current setup is Maschine for Drums, APC40 for Session control and Keys for melodic stuff. I'll always use keys of course, but the idea of just using the one controller to be able to do a bunch of stuff when I'm not sitting at my desk is appealing to me. I spend enough time sitting at a desk in my office job, I'm never keen to sit at my desk at home!

Go into pattern mode on the hardware when in the stock Live template then your pads will trigger off clips. you can record into the clips in what i am assuming is the same way you would from that apc 40 but ive never used an APC 40. BEFG also navigate the clip view. There is no way to directly control clip length from the Maschine controller but I am not sure that there is any way without opening the editor window for that sequence with the mouse either. l

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:58 am 

Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:27 pm
Posts: 636
kevwestbeats wrote:
There is no way to directly control clip length from the Maschine controller but I am not sure that there is any way without opening the editor window for that sequence with the mouse either.

I see that you're still comparing Maschine and Push as Live controllers but that doesn't make too much sense and is just causing more confusion in this discussion. Since Maschine as a whole (software + hardware) integrates well with Live (whether via drag&drop/export or as a plugin), it makes more sense to compare how much control each controller has over its own software. In the case of Maschine, it's pretty much total control, while in the case of Live & Push, it only covers a fraction of what the Maschine hardware can do for its own software.

So, for example, saying "There is no way to directly control clip length from the Maschine controller" without giving context that you're actually talking about the Live software and not the Maschine software, only adds to the confusion because Maschine has always been able to directly control clip length for its software from its controller, without ever touching the mouse.


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