ALTIVEC please - LIVE 2 performanse is more than crap !

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Major Rush

ALTIVEC please - LIVE 2 performanse is more than crap !

Post by Major Rush » Mon Dec 09, 2002 11:32 am

Dear Ableton´s !

first of all my compliments for Live 2 - great sound !
BUT:
I´m a Mac only user (PB G4-1000-1000Ram) and the performance sucks !
Finally I ask myself what´s up, cause almost everyone uses a mac for liveperformances on stage. Why don´t you try to improve this ? Please try to understand me: <<<<you are doing such a cool program but what for when the performance aspect is 0 level ? 10% without having one file in Live 2 b ... ?! Please start thinking about !

WE NEED IT MORE THAN URGENT !!!!! PLEASE !!!!!! :oops:

Major Rush

Post by Major Rush » Mon Dec 09, 2002 11:36 am

HARDWARE: RME MULTIFACE

xydeas@yahoo.de
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Altivec is the magic word;-)

Post by xydeas@yahoo.de » Mon Dec 09, 2002 12:04 pm

right,

i have the same Powerbook (1Ghz + 1GB Ram) and the same performance Problem! I guess we have a lot of Powerbook Users with Live with exactly the same Problem. I buy my new Powerbook only for Live to get better Results. I hope Live 2.0 will be better than this Beta version! Altivec is the magic word;-) think about it...
Regards
Thanassis

Mbazzy
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Post by Mbazzy » Mon Dec 09, 2002 12:23 pm

Am not on Aple - but seem to remember that Ableton developers confirmed in a thread some weeks ago; there was no Altivec support for v2.

These threads deal on this :
http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... ltivec+2+0
http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... c&start=15
http://www.mbazzy.tk -
Mbazzy's "The dysfunctional playground, a scrapbook a bout the shape of useless things" now OUT on Retinascan - http://www.retinascan.de

FORMAT
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Post by FORMAT » Mon Dec 09, 2002 2:07 pm

I would like to back this up --- this behavior made me decide against a PB, at least for the time being... I will think about it again if I see the performance on the final V2 has improved or if improved performance on G4 chips is promised for a 2.x version.

regards,
format

Maxim
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Post by Maxim » Mon Dec 09, 2002 2:37 pm

Format: No offence, but why not buy a pc-laptop if you want speed?

I bought my new TiBook not for speed but just because I like Macs, the allure and joy of OSX and lots of software like iMovie, KeyStroke and Max/MSP which still isn't available for PC.

I would never buy a new computer just for ONE program.

The behaviour didn't make you decide against the PB but against Live on a PB.

And to be honest, I have good hopes that eventually Live will go Altivec. If not, I try to be creative enough to get past speed problems.

Major Rush

Post by Major Rush » Mon Dec 09, 2002 3:19 pm

I KNOW WHAT ABLETONS SAID ABOUT ALTIVEC SOME WEEKS AGO ::: BUT ANYWAY I CANNOT UNDERSTAND BECAUSE ALMOST ALL PRO AUDIO USERS TRUST IN MAC PB´S FOR LIVEACTS ( ALTHOUGH MONOLAKE HIMSELF ) ::: SO TELL ME ONE REASON WHY THEY DON´T CONCENTRATE ON THIS ?!
IT IS RIGHT; IF YOU WANNA HAVE SPEED GO FOR A PC BUT THE ACTUELL POWER ON MY TIBOOK IS NOT GOOD; NOT BAD; NOT WORSE; ::: IT SUCKS !!! 10% WITHOUT DOING ANYTHING !!!

IN MY OPINION ALTIVEC IS MORE THAN NECESARRY BACAUSE WITHOUT IT THE MAC POWER GOES DOWN BECAUSE OF 2 THINKS: ANYWAY IT IS SLOWER AS A PC LAPTOP PLUS NO ALTIVEC :

SO ABLETON I ONLY CAN PRAY THAT YOU THINK ABOUT MY COMMENT BECAUSE THERE IS NO OTHER MOBILE COMPUTER OUTSIDE WHICH CAN BE COMPARED WITH THE RELIABILITY OF A MAC OR IN SPECIAL PB !!!

Maxim
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Post by Maxim » Mon Dec 09, 2002 3:30 pm

No need to screem. I read you :)

The reason they didn't do it at this time is that they simply don't have enough programmers to both A) make Live available the same time for all platforms and B) optimize it for all platforms.

Making it available for all platforms at the same time is their top priority at the moment. When the beta is done and live 2.0 has become a full-featured program it is time to optimize it platform specific. That will probably be in version 2.5 or 3.

Until that time, just be happy Live 2.0 exists in the first place.

Just my 3 euros. :-) And I'll quit about it now b/c I don't think the discussion is worth it at this time.

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Post by bioroid » Tue Dec 10, 2002 5:50 am

You don't see PC users screaming for SSE2 support because the raw power of the a P4/Athlon is enough. :)

But if Ableton adds Altivec then it would only be fair to have SSE2 support. Same goes for AudioUnits/DirectX.

I like how Live is truely cross platform and does not favor one weaker platform over a stronger one. :P

And don't yell at me, I have a G4/500 and its slow.

bioroid

MR. Rediculous

Post by MR. Rediculous » Tue Dec 10, 2002 10:07 am

If pc laptops were'nt faster than macs with live , nobody would be acting all crazy about, but the mac users can't handle the fact that Live runs faster on a pc, its like they feel some imaginary empire is crumbling all around them. Get over it, if it wasn't for live you guys wouldn't even know or care that pcs run live faster, you'd still be in your own little world thinkin
your so fkn cool with your mac. I use ibm compatibles myself, but I am saving up for a top of the line powerbook because they look so fkn cool, and I will look so fkn cool in my favorite coffee shop talkin about reaktor to the hoes who won't know what i'm talkin about, but they'll know I've got
a mac so that must mean my music is good.

and i'm serious I will have a powerbook oneday, their just so damn expensive, of course I will also have a toshiba to do the real music work on.

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Post by tjwett » Tue Dec 10, 2002 4:50 pm

there is no reason in the world to buy a PowerBook for Live!. Mainly because with a PowerBook you are paying extra money for a G4, which Live! does not use(no AltiVec). For less than half the price you can get an iBook that is just as fast, WAY more durable and extremely portable. I used to gig with a PowerBook and I spent more time worrying about my computer than the music. I feel like I could drop an iBook from a bridge and it won't skip a beat. PowerBooks are sexy but not as road-worthy as an iBook. get a POwerBook for PhotoShop or Logic, not for Live. doing your research BEFORE you buy is your only defense against wasting money.

SongCarverr

Post by SongCarverr » Tue Dec 10, 2002 8:47 pm

Theres a lot of screaming going on here. :-(


I am a pb 667 owner, and yes, i hope that apple finds a faster chip ASAP.

However, I think the Altivec part of the chip is not an add-on, but an essential part of the processing power of the machine... and has always been. The main difference between a g3 and a g4 is just that.

Using the altivec in scientific software can give 2-5 times gains, as per numererous articles on the science area. And Avltivec is well suited to fft DSP, and live deals a fair bith with fft dsp i'm guessing.

Understanding that

a) Ableton is understaffed, or ,well, really busy!
b) Comitted to multiple platforms (Yea!)
c) Not sure what Apple is going to do with its processor

I still ask Ableton to please not consider the altivec as an 'additional unit" but an intergral part of the processor.

Almost all macs ship with the same processor now.

And I agree with tjwett, If you are just planning on using the pb with Live, then right now I would buy a PC.

As I get out more, and perform with other laptop musos, I'm sure I'll find out how different software operates on different platforms.

-Keith, SongCarver

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Post by the8bitdeity » Tue Dec 10, 2002 9:22 pm

In addendum to Keith's message:

1) The altivec engine is essentially a vector based instruction set in the host processor. Anything that's a hardware level instruction will be fast.
Really fast. Trick is you gotta create code to specifically utilize this set. I'm not wiz on it, but I'm guessing that means going in and editing alot of code.

2) I expect the Altivec engine to be around for a while. While Apple is toying with other processors, namely the IBM one (not INtel!), I get the feeling that Altivec will need to be a part of it.

Time = money. Engineering resources are NOT infinite. Development time takes a while folks, and if Ableton were to say "Yes we're gonna optimize eventually for Altivec" but then realize they can't, they'd just be pulling a Clavia ("oops, sorry about that NM 4 OS we talked about for the past year, just kinda forget about it). If they say nothing then come out with it, more power to them!

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Post by joshcarter » Wed Dec 11, 2002 1:54 am

As SongCarver points out, Altivec is much more important the SSE2. I puzzle over Ableton's refusal to support it, especially with Apple providing several math libraries which are Altivec-enhanced. Specifically:

http://developer.apple.com/hardware/ve/ ... aries.html

And of course GCC 3 (provided in OS X) supports Altivec.

I don't know of any other half-serious audio app which runs on the Mac but doesn't support Altivec. It's crazy. It's not like the G4 is some new thing that just came out, either. Don't get me wrong, I still dig Live a lot, but it's frustratingly slow, and it would be at least twice as fast with basic Altivec support.

-Josh

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Post by dpel » Wed Dec 11, 2002 4:32 am

MR. Rediculous wrote:. Get over it, if it wasn't for live you guys wouldn't even know or care that pcs run live faster, you'd still be in your own little world thinkin
your so fkn cool with your mac. I use ibm compatibles myself, but I am saving up for a top of the line powerbook because they look so fkn cool, and I will look so fkn cool in my favorite coffee shop talkin about reaktor to the hoes who won't know what i'm talkin about, but they'll know I've got
a mac so that must mean my music is good.

and i'm serious I will have a powerbook oneday, their just so damn expensive, of course I will also have a toshiba to do the real music work on.
dude, well said! well said!!!
great fkn points.
comedy.
dp

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