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 Post subject: Why program change is so damn difficult in Live...?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:27 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:26 am
Posts: 175
One of the most frustrating things in Live for me currently is the following.

I like to have a workflow where I play stuff in loop in background and then jam something on it with keyboard. Then I press a button to change to the next program or another button to change to the previous one.

This simple task seems to be extraordinary difficult or maybe I am just stupid...?

I mean the best thing would be if you were able to somehow program keyboard shortcuts to do this (e.g. alt-Z, change program to previous patch, alt-X change program to next patch, perhaps even alt-C change bank to previous, alt-V change bank to next).

To be able to do this appropriately I need my large keyboard (QS6) that has arrow up and down for changing patches. And lets say that I am at patch 21, then I use mouse to select directly patch 66, next time when I press arrow up it changes to patch 22, which is very annoying. The same property is with my other keyboard (M-Audio Oxygen).

Of all of the controls on my keyboard I use patch changing most often. So how can it still be so difficult after Live has existed for so long. Or is there some solution?

And. btw.. I am speaking about VST-plugins like Sylenth.

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 Post subject: Re: Why program change is so damn difficult in Live...?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:59 pm 

Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2004 10:21 pm
Posts: 1181
Location: Massachusetts, USA
I hear you but I am not sure what can be done in Live itself, not sure if M4L will alleviate any of this for one thing, secondly have you dug through the manual and forums for anyone's input/tips? I don't know if you'd find it in the Tips and Tricks forum, but wouldn't hurt to search around if you haven't yet.

Mike

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 Post subject: Re: Why program change is so damn difficult in Live...?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:08 pm 

Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:30 pm
Posts: 9625
Location: Seattle
golemus wrote:
To be able to do this appropriately I need my large keyboard (QS6) that has arrow up and down for changing patches. And lets say that I am at patch 21, then I use mouse to select directly patch 66, next time when I press arrow up it changes to patch 22, which is very annoying. The same property is with my other keyboard (M-Audio Oxygen).

The problem here is that the hardware sends the patches. I don't know if it's possible but it may be, to send to the hardware a patch change message so it recognizes that you're on patch 66. The hardware is on patch 21, when the software is told to go to patch 66 the hardware still thinks it's on 21. So the two most obvious solutions are to see if you can send patch change information back to the hardware. When using a soft synth this would mean setting up another MIDI track to control patch changes, maybe even two, one "routing" MIDI track to send patch changes to the soft synth, and one to send patch changes to the controller.

I don't think this is a limitation of Live, but a routing problem, you've got me curious, because it would be pretty cool to be able to do this. I'll mess around with my Novation Remote SL and see if it can do this. :)

Of course the other solution is to use your controller to change patches and not your mouse.


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 Post subject: Re: Why program change is so damn difficult in Live...?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:06 pm 

Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:30 pm
Posts: 9625
Location: Seattle
The Novation Remote SL anyway will not receive program change messages. :(
Found that out in the manual.
This is definitely a hardware problem and not Ableton's issue.


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 Post subject: Re: Why program change is so damn difficult in Live...?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:58 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:26 am
Posts: 175
I just realized that there is a solution but it does not work very well. If you choose with mouse the drop-down menu of the instrument in focus you can then use up and down arrows to change patches.

The largest problem for me is that for many plugins that I use (e.g. Synth 1 and Z3TA2) the dropdown menu does not work. For synth1 it does work in Studio One so this must be at least partially a problem inside Live.


Although for some plugs it works very well, for others (e.g. Albino) if you change something in synth you have to click the drop-down menu again with mouse --> workflow bottleneck.

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 Post subject: Re: Why program change is so damn difficult in Live...?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:42 am 

Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:30 pm
Posts: 9625
Location: Seattle
Just use the program change buttons on your controller exclusively and problem solved. Live implements various methods of patch changing, can be slightly annoying I guess.


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 Post subject: Re: Why program change is so damn difficult in Live...?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:05 am 

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:50 pm
Posts: 7018
piz midi have a plugin or 2 to switch PC. It seems like the best way to do it in Live, Macrobat 2nd best.

His website's gone!!!

Well, here: https://code.google.com/p/pizmidi/

If you download one of the files appropriate for your system, it's a bundle of his plugins. One is called Midiconverter3, and midiprogramchange.

Then you set it up in a midi track, and have another *blank* midi track receive it and send it. you can macro the Program change along with MSB and LSB!

On a side note that's another great way to use it for aftertouch if your controller doesn't support it.

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 Post subject: Re: Why program change is so damn difficult in Live...?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:36 am 

Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:30 pm
Posts: 9625
Location: Seattle
I hate saying it but this is definitely one of those Max For Live cases. I'm not sure you could do this in M4L but it's possible.
What golemus or any of us could use is a translator for program change messages that made Live send a +1 or -1 instead of what controller keyboards send now (a 1 to 128 patch message) to the soft synth in a track. It's beyond my abilities, but some Max guru probably could do it.


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 Post subject: Re: Why program change is so damn difficult in Live...?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:03 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 10:55 pm
Posts: 2044
Location: Boston, MA
darkenedsoul wrote:
I hear you but I am not sure what can be done in Live itself, not sure if M4L will alleviate any of this for one thing, secondly have you dug through the manual and forums for anyone's input/tips? I don't know if you'd find it in the Tips and Tricks forum, but wouldn't hurt to search around if you haven't yet.

Mike


Many threads on this. Like: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=92831

On Max for Live, here you go: http://www.maxforlive.com/library/device.php?id=512

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 Post subject: Re: Why program change is so damn difficult in Live...?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:01 pm 

Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2009 5:38 pm
Posts: 58
Shadx312, or anybody who uses PizMIDI: Can you tell me why ,when I try to use Midiconverter3 (and some other from the Pizmidi set), Live automatically changes the MIDI track to an audio track, rendering the plugin useless. What's the workaround?

Thanks,

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Why program change is so damn difficult in Live...?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:06 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:50 pm
Posts: 7018
Yeah sorry man I already checked from your other post, sorry I didn't reply, but it stays as a midi track so I'm thinking he overlooked that programming for the mac port...

Did you post this issue at KvR?

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 Post subject: Re: Why program change is so damn difficult in Live...?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:19 pm 

Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2009 5:38 pm
Posts: 58
Yes I did post in KVR. No answer yet.
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... di#5434024

So you think this might be a bug in the Mac version? Anybody else use Pizmidi with Live on a Mac?

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