Advanced midi editing in live 9

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
The JackProject
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:33 pm

Advanced midi editing in live 9

Post by The JackProject » Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:33 am

Posted this in the live community but without sucess. maybe there are some users here that can help:

Hey guys longtime logic user here. Just did the switch to Live 9 suite. I have a lot of HW-Synths so i work a lot with midi.

First: Are there any in-depth midi tutorials covering live 9?

Okay and here a few specific questions:

1) Is there Input-quatisation with q-swing?

2) Are there advanced quantisation option? Like q-strength, q-flam (this is so important for quantized chords) or q-range?

3) Are there midi-note transformation settings? Like e.g. a shortcut that makes all note same length that opens a transform-menu or something? This is nice with baselines where the notelength is very important for the groove. Is there a fast way to do it?? I dont want to paint them all in and manually set the length. I want to record something, then if i dont like it select all notes and transform all notes of the played sequence to the same length. After that i may want to transform to legato and adjust the gaps between the notes manually. Are there any workarounds for that? I have suite 9 so max4live is avalible.

4) Is the Envelope tap something like the hypereditor in logic? Is it true that i can delete midi-cc-date in there or delete aftertouch if i dont like it??

5) Is there a note-overlap correction shortcut?

6) Is there a function where i can split a midi-region that plays a polyphonic chord in the means that i creates new midi-regions for each note of the chord?? Like separate midi-event by note pitch.

7) Is there something like the event-list in logic? This shows all note of the active midiregion in a row with position, type of midi-information (note or cc-data), channel, note-value, velocity and lenght + exact position in the grid. The selected notes are highlighted. When the sequence is played, the actual played notes gets highlighted. You can also sort the notes by any term in the row. Lets say you want to quickly find the longest note. then you sort by length. This feat. is very powerful and i would love to have it in live. Maybe there is a m4l device for that.

8) Are there advanced randomizer/transformer options for midi-events? Lets say you select all note of the sequence and want to transform there velocity. But you dont want them all have the same vel-value. Is it possible to define a vel-range and automatically set a random vel-value within that range?? This is nice to have some control and in the same time a bit human feel.



And last but not least: Maybe there are some ex-logic users here and can share some midi-tricks live9 can do but logic cant or some special tips and tricks.



THX a lot guys!

Cheers TJP

Szuumm
Posts: 209
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:05 pm

Re: Advanced midi editing in live 9

Post by Szuumm » Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:46 am

Not a Logic user, but I'm guessing you are going to be disappointed with Live's MIDI implementation/features in comparison.

Hope you tried the demo before you bought it...

oneummon
Posts: 47
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:32 pm

Re: Advanced midi editing in live 9

Post by oneummon » Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:50 am

Excellent questions. I changed from Logic to Live and back. Currently I'm having both, and partly for the midi reasons. I can't build custom macros (key commands) for specific midi editing with Live and there's no list view option for the analytical post editing.

But you can keep both, right?

The JackProject
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:33 pm

Re: Advanced midi editing in live 9

Post by The JackProject » Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:37 pm

no demo before. I went all in with that 25% offer. Liked the new automation, that you can build racks, save them and recall them later, the new compressor and eq, the new audio-to-midi feat. and of course m4l. Love that open source idea... think that is the future. Also love push. Its so nice to have a dedicated controller for a daw that can do great things. I am using ni maschine... but never within logic... its a big mess and if you run logic at 32bits it eats up all you memory. And what i missed most in maschine was as simple as use swing on note-repeat. But no way to do that. With push its no problem and because it works sop well with live think that this will be somehow one of the best hands-on daw-experiences.
I changed cause i dont trust apple anymore with the developement of logic. Its not on there focus... i mean cmon 4 years no major update?? They have the manpower and resources for that but they are pulling out a new iphone or tablet shit every year...

How do you guys edit your recorded midi-sequences?? In logic or another daw?? I mean yeah i know you can rewire live to logic... some guys do that.... midi and main arrangement in logic, live for audio samples and loops... But then again logic is the master and for me this is not an ideal solution. So im searching for a live only solution with the option to add push later on. Then i would have my mpk49 and push as my midi controlers. I could use maschine in midi-mode but i kinda wait until the template is fixed.

I know you can select all midi-event in a sequence. But then it does not make much sense for that in live except for 3 operation:
1) you can quantize and then legato
2) or make all note as short as it goes by klick and hold the mouse. When they all have the same size you can extend them (still holding the mouse) and you have a kinda make same notelength-hack but hey this method is really or a hack than a proper implemented feature.... it feel unprofessional doing it this way (or is it just me thinking so)?
3) You can edit all velocity at once.

thats it . I guess... in logic there are a lot more options.... the question is why is this (select all) implemented? Maybe there will be more options in the future.... But im really asking myself: Are there any professional composers, artists or producers working with midi in ableton?? I mean editing every freaking note-event with the penciltool till its perfect can be a pain in the ass while working to a deadline. I mean there are production standards. Thinks have to be on point... after that you can add a bit of human factor but in a controlled way. Im kinda shocked that nobody cares about this thinks... or maybe there are more workarounds i dont know...

So guys please help... i mean im really trying to get down with live 9. No applefanboy at all. Would really love to get away from logic cause i know that ableton will care about its product a lot more since they are specialized in daws and live its their main product. :D

Schmidi
Posts: 321
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2003 2:07 am
Location: Seattle

Re: Advanced midi editing in live 9

Post by Schmidi » Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:25 pm

*He's gonna be really shocked when he hears there is no SysEx implimentation!

The JackProject
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:33 pm

Re: Advanced midi editing in live 9

Post by The JackProject » Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:44 pm

WHAT 8O
Fck i have a prophet8, virus ti, se1x, juno 106, microkorg, tt303 and i want to use those guys!
Why.... cant live just handle midi right!!! Why the lack of sysex?
You know i have the feeling that a lot of guys are stacking loops together and call it musicproduction...
I like working with audio but i want to sequence with midi and then when everything is ready record it back to audio and then the fun with live beginns but without powerfull midi-editing i just dont get to this point.

darkenedsoul
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Location: Massachusetts, USA
Contact:

Re: Advanced midi editing in live 9

Post by darkenedsoul » Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:06 pm

Well you could try using MuseScore, Crescendo or Finale Notepad (all free but with some limitations) when writing your MIDI sequences. I am probably going to go that route and see how it looks when imported into Ableton after saving it as a MIDI file. I am by no means a professional composer/artist (who makes big bucks anyways on the latter lmao) and I think MuseScore takes the cake among those 3 options for scoring your MIDI outside of Live and you can record the notes in via your MIDI keyboard, draw them in as well once you set your scale. It looks pretty cool and interesting and may help me get past simple writers block (being a non-pro here).

But yeah, no sysex in like forever and I've been playing around with Live since 3.0.4 days. Hardly touched it over the past few years when I was laid off (I should have been using that time to make some really depressing drone/music lol) but I am trying to get back on track with things music-wise and want to get both projects moving again....but doing this crap solo can be a pain in the ass...

Again, try the tools above to see if it will help in the writing process anyways, then bring into Live, add instruments and see where it goes. That's my plan anyways, and if it works, great! If it doesn't I'll go back to recording into live and having to quantize/line up notes manually which can suck, especially if you don't have the tempo set correctly! I hate that shyte!

Mike
http://www.darkenedsoul.net - main website
Ableton Live 8.x/9.x : NI Komplete 8 : Home built 4690K 16GB 500GB SSD, 1TB 7200, 2x2TB.

outsidesys
Posts: 400
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:26 am

Re: Advanced midi editing in live 9

Post by outsidesys » Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:29 am

Out of curiosity, could you slave Logic to Live, and use Logic as the midi sequencer for your external synths? Then setup Live to monitor/record the audio from the external synths?

pencilrocket
Posts: 1718
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:46 am

Re: Advanced midi editing in live 9

Post by pencilrocket » Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:56 am

Try&Ask before buy....
Image

xbitz
Posts: 126
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:19 am

Re: Advanced midi editing in live 9

Post by xbitz » Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:17 am

hi, IMO Live is a creativity tool (same kind of animal as Reason) in it u can quickly sketch your ideas(using vsts, built-in synths, samples), it's for creating the main wireframe of/for your song, vs Logic which is a productivity tool, in it u can finalize your songs (this is the place where u have to replace the soft based synth with real ones, add hardware based effect using UAD things etc.)

Cheers!

monohusche
Posts: 190
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:28 pm
Location: Hongkong

Re: Advanced midi editing in live 9

Post by monohusche » Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:42 am

no idea about sysex, but extending MIDI editing capabilities via M4L should be straightforward as the LiveAPI provides access to MIDI events within clips.

I checked maxforlive.com, but most of the MIDI devices deal with realtime conversion (filtering etc.) or generating sequences themselves, didn't find anything which would help you at "design time".

oddstep
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Location: Plymouth the great

Re: Advanced midi editing in live 9

Post by oddstep » Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:05 am

Midi support within Live is really basic. There are a number of midi devices that do useful things ... Like randomise velocity or fix note length, but these happen down stream of the event. So to actually record them you'd have to route the midi data into another midi track and record that stream as a new object. If you've got Suite.. CovertOps I think made a max patch for live 8 that basically was an event editor for Live. Check out Maxforlive.com likewise, sysex will need a max solution...but a lot of people use Live globally and plenty of them have synths... So you won't alone in trying to force live to play nice.

UnCL0NED
Posts: 306
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Location: Latitude: 52° 4' 60 N, Longitude: 4° 17' 60 E

Re: Advanced midi editing in live 9

Post by UnCL0NED » Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:22 am

Schmidi wrote:*He's gonna be really shocked when he hears there is no SysEx implimentation!
:D

^^ The main reason why I bought Logic when I was still a student :)
But since I work more and more in the digital domain, I use logic less and less... Live is so much more intuitive!
soundcloud
"everything you read on the internet is true!"

The JackProject
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:33 pm

Re: Advanced midi editing in live 9

Post by The JackProject » Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:44 pm

oddstep wrote:Midi support within Live is really basic. There are a number of midi devices that do useful things ... Like randomise velocity or fix note length, but these happen down stream of the event. So to actually record them you'd have to route the midi data into another midi track and record that stream as a new object. If you've got Suite.. CovertOps I think made a max patch for live 8 that basically was an event editor for Live. Check out Maxforlive.com likewise, sysex will need a max solution...but a lot of people use Live globally and plenty of them have synths... So you won't alone in trying to force live to play nice.

Wow this is great advice! Yeah live has those realtime-midi plugins but the problem was the editability but this can work :D
Will also check up the mentioned m4l device.

+ 1 for try&ask ^^

Thx for all the nice coments and ideas so far.

swingsetcommittee
Posts: 18
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Advanced midi editing in live 9

Post by swingsetcommittee » Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:32 pm

The JackProject wrote:Posted this in the live community but without sucess. maybe there are some users here that can help:

Hey guys longtime logic user here. Just did the switch to Live 9 suite. I have a lot of HW-Synths so i work a lot with midi.

First: Are there any in-depth midi tutorials covering live 9?

Okay and here a few specific questions:

1) Is there Input-quatisation with q-swing?

2) Are there advanced quantisation option? Like q-strength, q-flam (this is so important for quantized chords) or q-range?

3) Are there midi-note transformation settings? Like e.g. a shortcut that makes all note same length that opens a transform-menu or something? This is nice with baselines where the notelength is very important for the groove. Is there a fast way to do it?? I dont want to paint them all in and manually set the length. I want to record something, then if i dont like it select all notes and transform all notes of the played sequence to the same length. After that i may want to transform to legato and adjust the gaps between the notes manually. Are there any workarounds for that? I have suite 9 so max4live is avalible.

4) Is the Envelope tap something like the hypereditor in logic? Is it true that i can delete midi-cc-date in there or delete aftertouch if i dont like it??

5) Is there a note-overlap correction shortcut?

6) Is there a function where i can split a midi-region that plays a polyphonic chord in the means that i creates new midi-regions for each note of the chord?? Like separate midi-event by note pitch.

7) Is there something like the event-list in logic? This shows all note of the active midiregion in a row with position, type of midi-information (note or cc-data), channel, note-value, velocity and lenght + exact position in the grid. The selected notes are highlighted. When the sequence is played, the actual played notes gets highlighted. You can also sort the notes by any term in the row. Lets say you want to quickly find the longest note. then you sort by length. This feat. is very powerful and i would love to have it in live. Maybe there is a m4l device for that.

8) Are there advanced randomizer/transformer options for midi-events? Lets say you select all note of the sequence and want to transform there velocity. But you dont want them all have the same vel-value. Is it possible to define a vel-range and automatically set a random vel-value within that range?? This is nice to have some control and in the same time a bit human feel.



And last but not least: Maybe there are some ex-logic users here and can share some midi-tricks live9 can do but logic cant or some special tips and tricks.



THX a lot guys!

Cheers TJP
I'm in the same boat as you man. Hard core Logic 9 power-user turning to Ableton because I love its intuitive, inspiring nature, but once you get past the surface, there isn't a lot of depth in terms of power-user options. I find it hugely disappointing that I can't perform such basic tasks as fixing the note length when midi editing. The lack of hot keys and reliance on constant mouse clicking is also no bueno for someone recovering from tendonitis in the hands from too much editing. Boo.

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