Can someone confirm incorrect VSTI midi timing

anti-banausic · Post by **anti-banausic** » Fri May 27, 2005 4:03 pm

Actually, I have no problem with tempo. It seems pretty rock-solid from here. It isn't as if the tempo is off. Just a small, and sometimes un-noticeable latency problem.

However, before you have tried LIVE to its fullest, I wouldn't be screaming spilled milk. It really is the fastest to learn, most intuitive app out there. And it fits my work flow so well. More like being able to jam ideas around in a band, but it is just you. Instead of the oh-so linear way of composing before.

Just waiting for LIVE5. 's'all.

WaveRider · Post by **WaveRider** » Fri May 27, 2005 4:53 pm

anti-banausic wrote: Instead of the oh-so linear way of composing before.

Agree, the most creative app around.... suits my live triggerring/ improvised song structure style too....

anti-banausic wrote: Just a small, and sometimes un-noticeable latency problem.

Clearly noticable for percussion, could not understand why a bass drum combo sounded out of time.... simply unforgivable if that is rendered late.... could stand it when using real-time, but now that means the samples I will record will be slightly off beat, and may clicking at the end too.

..I really tought Live was more of a pro software, it is a 500$ toy, at best a creative tool, not a music software we can count on building tight beat with.

Don't forget all those little delays will add up if you resample may times, for exemple a 4 bar loop built with a resampled 1 bar loop, it will be 2X late then.

I am stunned. I had imagined all this had been taken care of....

gaspode · Post by **gaspode** » Fri May 27, 2005 5:04 pm

With rewire or any plugins there is a buffer between them and Live... if there wasn't then you'd be getting pops and clicks all the time while trying to do something in the software...

This is not a sound card latency issue (it doesn't sound like you are self sampling through your soundcard at least)... it sounds like this is a plugin delay compensation issue.

For now, to overcome this you'll need to self sample a loop with a little extra... and then move your warp marker to the proper sample location for the start of the sound. This can be a pain and a waste of drive space, but as far as I know this is the only reasonable way to deal with this issue for now.

I remember reading someplace that you might be able to modify one of the config files for live to reduce the sample buffers, but that might have been only for rewire. Don't know if it is the same setting for VST(i) as well...

Greg

anti-banausic · Post by **anti-banausic** » Fri May 27, 2005 5:04 pm

Actually, it is only a small latency in the very first section of a loop. It can be dealt with by moving the first warpmarker to the very beginning of the waveform. This will put everything in time.

I am sure that they are working on this for LIVE5.

WaveRider · Post by **WaveRider** » Fri May 27, 2005 5:15 pm

gaspode wrote: For now, to overcome this you'll need to self sample a loop with a little extra... and then move your warp marker to the proper sample location for the start of the sound. This can be a pain and a waste of drive space, but as far as I know this is the only reasonable way to deal with this issue for now.

Thanks for the tip, will use it when needed. But it defeats the beatiful loop sampling system Live has. So easy to fire up and grap even bar lenghts automatically.

And BTW, vst latency it is a very simple problem that has been solved by many other developpers.

Ableton impressed me with their knowelge of the workflow offered by drum machines and hardware sequencers, but oh boy they went down in my opinion pretty fast with this one.

Not taking care of that when rendering audio loops produced by vsti
is such a blatant omission...

..please confirm that does not happen with audio clips....

gaspode · Post by **gaspode** » Fri May 27, 2005 5:23 pm

WaveRider wrote:

Not taking care of that when rendering audio loops produced by vsti
is such a blatant omission...

I haven't found this an issue with self sampling audio clips... but it is also an issue for VST effects as well, and seems to be worsened when you use offboard gear like the powercore...

Still keep in mind that there is a trade off between Live being live... and it being yet another studio product. It would be nice if studio users had the option for using some form of PDC though...

Greg

WaveRider · Post by **WaveRider** » Fri May 27, 2005 5:39 pm

gaspode wrote: I haven't found this an issue with self sampling audio clips... but it is also an issue for VST effects as well, and seems to be worsened when you use offboard gear like the powercore...

Still keep in mind that there is a trade off between Live being live... and it being yet another studio product. It would be nice if studio users had the option for using some form of PDC though...

Greg

Agree, enough linear studios out there, but to me Live is also a loop creation tool and that should include proper vst timing too.

But if it des not happen with audio clips, then it does not add up with every audio resampling, you then have to correct only the first one. Not as bad as I first got it.

PDC does not mess up anything in an app used for live events anyway, so I do not see any downsides for it.

gaspode · Post by **gaspode** » Fri May 27, 2005 5:44 pm

WaveRider wrote: PDC does not mess up anything in an app used for live events anyway, so I do not see any downsides for it.

No it doesn't... but at the same time by doing PDC it is changing what you were hearing live to what you are then hearing mastered or recorded. Though it is small... and I am certain that the Live team can figure this out without breaking a sweat

I totally agree that the feature is required... and entirely necessary for creating loops within live... I will keep my fingers crossed that it will be realized in version 5

anti-banausic · Post by **anti-banausic** » Fri May 27, 2005 6:00 pm

Am in total agreement with gaspode. While other programs have had PDC for awhile, you must realize that LIVE4 is Abletons first venture into MIDI and VSTi. It isn't as though all the other sequencers just came blazing on the scene with freeze, PDC, effects chains. That is why subsequent versions come out. It does take time to implement everything....We were all belly-aching for LIVE4, and they gave it to us, and have come out with many bug-fixes (to mostly small bugs). I still prefer to use 4.0.3 just because I hate upgrading and there is nothing serious that is wrong at the moment (outside of the need for certain things that won't be fixed until 5 or later).

Really, try to do a lot of what you can do so easily in LIVE in other programs and you will find that it isn't quite so....nice..

NAMM is coming, LIVE5 is probably very close to realization. Patience is a virtue.

WaveRider · Post by **WaveRider** » Fri May 27, 2005 6:05 pm

gaspode wrote:. but at the same time by doing PDC it is changing what you were hearing live to what you are then hearing mastered or recorded.

I am not sure about that.

What I think is that PDC is heard in real-time and the file is rendered the same. (exemple cubase)

It time aligns everything both live and when rendered.

It is how I understood it, so with PDC it is also what you hear is what you get. Same with a non-PDC host, except then vst won't be time aligned, some will be late compared to others. And that won't change when rendered either.

All that is not such a big deal except when trying to double percussion for exemple.

And I know how to avoid some problems in non-PDC hosts too. Not summing back together the same dry signal that is going thru different vst effects for exemple. Reverbs are ok (not really noticable) if used 100% wet as a send, or when used as inserts if dry passes thru do not sum that with the same dry signal from elsewhere.

Some vst compressors add so much latency you better use then only when mastering. Be carefull when compressing a track only with vst, it may push it out of time.

But by providing compressors gates and eq (witch as what I got here do not introduce delays in renders) Ableton has us covered to a degree.

Anyway time for some music making now.....

...thanks everyone!