Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Ableton Denver
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by Ableton Denver » Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:52 am

Official User Update, original post : viewtopic.php?f=52&t=190566&start=0

Ableton sent me a link, I did everything they instructed. These foolish and haphazard requests (yes, pointing at you dev team) did deliver a barley usable system. The problem remains but is lessened in severity. Still unacceptable.

After loosing drives I had to get new drives and I was able to create a benchmark. This is the no BS test: 600mb library took 10 minutes to scan and become browsable. Normal conditions, above average machine. I repeated over and over and the performance was too slow to accept.

I am never going to be able to play on another persons computer or access my lib elsewhere. The plan will be to go out to lunch while Ableton pulls the head of the browser out of the, well you know...

Second : I have been able to force read errors, mistakes, and additional lag by modifying libraries (file systems) outside of Ableton.

I suppose the dev team thinks we are all working off of local drive (never use your OS drive for a library - this is bad practice) and also that we never modify file systems outside of Ableton.

This is the typical lack of holistic understanding that is endemic with Ableton, speaking from 3+ years of foolish user group collaboration I have bimonthly stories recorded of correspondence and phone calls that make rational people want to cry. There is a huge disconnect on the true use patterns and via Live9 and absolutely the Push controller there is an additional migration to satisfy the rookie bedroom producers and a solid pattern of ignoring live (stage) performance.

BTW - thanks for the "scene" superclass in the remote scripts. Way to break all of our work.
closed the user group on purpose.

stringtapper
Posts: 6272
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by stringtapper » Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:59 am

Ableton Denver wrote:These foolish and haphazard requests (yes, pointing at you dev team) did deliver a barley usable system.
Sounds like the browser is the… yeast of your concerns…?



I'll see myself out…
Unsound Designer

skatr2
Posts: 450
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:38 pm

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by skatr2 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:12 am

Ableton Denver wrote: This is the typical lack of holistic understanding that is endemic with Ableton, speaking from 3+ years of foolish user group collaboration I have bimonthly stories recorded of correspondence and phone calls that make rational people want to cry. There is a huge disconnect on the true use patterns and via Live9 and absolutely the Push controller there is an additional migration to satisfy the rookie bedroom producers and a solid pattern of ignoring live (stage) performance.

BTW - thanks for the "scene" superclass in the remote scripts. Way to break all of our work.
ya know one would think someone with such an extensive negative background experience and opinion of a company as yourself, you would have ran the trial before you bought live 9. I'm honestly shocked you still are taking the time to complain with the level of problems, irritation, and disgruntlement you have shown with the company. If I was at that point, I would seek other venues for my loot than here.

pencilrocket
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by pencilrocket » Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:31 am

He said he had a community group. I think he has insight into the software he's been using.
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ezelkow1
Posts: 366
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by ezelkow1 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:56 am

skatr2 wrote:
Ableton Denver wrote: This is the typical lack of holistic understanding that is endemic with Ableton, speaking from 3+ years of foolish user group collaboration I have bimonthly stories recorded of correspondence and phone calls that make rational people want to cry. There is a huge disconnect on the true use patterns and via Live9 and absolutely the Push controller there is an additional migration to satisfy the rookie bedroom producers and a solid pattern of ignoring live (stage) performance.

BTW - thanks for the "scene" superclass in the remote scripts. Way to break all of our work.
ya know one would think someone with such an extensive negative background experience and opinion of a company as yourself, you would have ran the trial before you bought live 9. I'm honestly shocked you still are taking the time to complain with the level of problems, irritation, and disgruntlement you have shown with the company. If I was at that point, I would seek other venues for my loot than here.
I guess Ill just never understand this line of thinking of, ill just take it and not try to offer up suggestions and criticism that could make software that I have used for many years that much better for myself and everyone else that uses it

Im sure many people have demo'd it and decided not to use it because of these changes. Theres also plenty of us who, despite this flaw, still saw value in the upgrade along with the hopes that since so many other people also have issues with this, that it will be fixed in the future. If not, I can deal with it and work around it for the sake of loving the workflow of live and not wanting to have to learn an entire new software package; but do I want to sit back and not try to offer up suggestions and provide examples of problems in order to try to fix it, no, thats just stupid to not try.

Its not just bitching and moaning for the sake of complaining, its an attempt to show the dev team problems that exist and offer solutions to these problems, if no one voiced their opinion along with others then the software could keep heading in a direction that could be opposite what the actual end users want, and then ableton would stop seeing more and more loot and fall behind

skatr2
Posts: 450
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:38 pm

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by skatr2 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:18 am

ezelkow1 wrote:
skatr2 wrote:
Ableton Denver wrote: This is the typical lack of holistic understanding that is endemic with Ableton, speaking from 3+ years of foolish user group collaboration I have bimonthly stories recorded of correspondence and phone calls that make rational people want to cry. There is a huge disconnect on the true use patterns and via Live9 and absolutely the Push controller there is an additional migration to satisfy the rookie bedroom producers and a solid pattern of ignoring live (stage) performance.

BTW - thanks for the "scene" superclass in the remote scripts. Way to break all of our work.
ya know one would think someone with such an extensive negative background experience and opinion of a company as yourself, you would have ran the trial before you bought live 9. I'm honestly shocked you still are taking the time to complain with the level of problems, irritation, and disgruntlement you have shown with the company. If I was at that point, I would seek other venues for my loot than here.
I guess Ill just never understand this line of thinking of, ill just take it and not try to offer up suggestions and criticism that could make software that I have used for many years that much better for myself and everyone else that uses it

Im sure many people have demo'd it and decided not to use it because of these changes. Theres also plenty of us who, despite this flaw, still saw value in the upgrade along with the hopes that since so many other people also have issues with this, that it will be fixed in the future. If not, I can deal with it and work around it for the sake of loving the workflow of live and not wanting to have to learn an entire new software package; but do I want to sit back and not try to offer up suggestions and provide examples of problems in order to try to fix it, no, thats just stupid to not try.

Its not just bitching and moaning for the sake of complaining, its an attempt to show the dev team problems that exist and offer solutions to these problems, if no one voiced their opinion along with others then the software could keep heading in a direction that could be opposite what the actual end users want, and then ableton would stop seeing more and more loot and fall behind
That's the rational response To this discussion. By all means make suggestions that make your workflow easier. But as these forums get, don't go on tirades about how a b and c are wrong and that you wasted hard earned money when its what was there upon release. These people didn't waste it, they spent it on the upgrades they like and ended up resenting the ones they didn't pay attention to.

I better understand the issues with the indexing and hope they can incorporate a better option for those who may be collaborating and moving around data. It makes more sense to add either an index cutoff or non-indexed folders. But to demand it and expect it, well you are just getting over emotional toward a company involved in an industry that frankly is getting smaller as other companies catch up. Ableton is not the only game in town anymore and as much as many of us love how they've been over the years, people need to keep their options open when it gets to a point that they are having so many disgusted moments with a faceless company.

pencilrocket
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by pencilrocket » Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:06 am

Those who pre-ordered couldn't demo. It induces such a response from purchasers.
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Ableton Denver
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by Ableton Denver » Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:21 am

Good news everyone - jsut lost another drive to the Live9 browser. That benchmark test I did killed the drive. (earlier in thread) http://imgur.com/I58YclQ

Working drive, folder was dropped into Ableton. Ableton scanned (forever). Ableton closed. Drive ejected. Drive mounted later, will not mount and attached image is of the repair dialog (this is happening to all drives in all formats Ableton touches).

About to loose it here! This is beyond any reasonable doubt the Ableton browser. This time I have isolated the use pattern and no other access was on this drive besides the Finder in OSX and Ableton Live9.

file under gotcha!
closed the user group on purpose.

3osc
Posts: 144
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by 3osc » Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:25 am

Does the dive reformat? I've had the browser scan 3 different drives now, and they're all still healthy.

fishmonkey
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by fishmonkey » Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:37 am

you seem to be suggesting that Live 9 is somehow causing hardware damage to your hard drives. that is complete bullshit.

how are you connecting these drives to your computer?

Amaury
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by Amaury » Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:11 am

Hi,

To answer a few questions from this thread:

- Offering a 'don't scan this folder' feature is not simple and not a quick fix. The browser is build to display data from a database, only. We can imagine a way to display data from the file system only, but this has to be considered as a feature of its own. Not only is it a technical change that's not too small, but we'd also need to provide clarity in the GUI about what is behaving as a registered folder using features such as fast search, filtering contents in Hot-Swap mode, and what is just showing files on the hard drive, possibly to way to move from one to the other "worlds". It is imaginable, but at this moment we are working on improving indexer performances because that is what may potentially impact all users and will clear the ground for other desires.

- We are working on speeding up the indexer with the goals that files show as fast as possible during an initial scan, and that there is no negative impact on each start of the program while folders are already registered. So far it is known that initial scan takes way too long, and that scanning for changes on each start of Live also takes too long, and may impact playback on OSX. These are the three things we are working on addressing.

Kind regards,
Amaury
Ableton Product Team

androids
Posts: 70
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by androids » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:09 am

Amaury wrote:Hi,

To answer a few questions from this thread:

- Offering a 'don't scan this folder' feature is not simple and not a quick fix. The browser is build to display data from a database, only. We can imagine a way to display data from the file system only, but this has to be considered as a feature of its own. Not only is it a technical change that's not too small, but we'd also need to provide clarity in the GUI about what is behaving as a registered folder using features such as fast search, filtering contents in Hot-Swap mode, and what is just showing files on the hard drive, possibly to way to move from one to the other "worlds". It is imaginable, but at this moment we are working on improving indexer performances because that is what may potentially impact all users and will clear the ground for other desires.

- We are working on speeding up the indexer with the goals that files show as fast as possible during an initial scan, and that there is no negative impact on each start of the program while folders are already registered. So far it is known that initial scan takes way too long, and that scanning for changes on each start of Live also takes too long, and may impact playback on OSX. These are the three things we are working on addressing.

Kind regards,
Amaury

Nice to hear that you guys are investigating the problem.
Instead of a "scan/dont scan" on each folder, I could imagine that two different sections "Places (indexed)" and "Places (browsing)" could do the trick, so the user has the choice to place the folder where he wants to ...

BTW, is it normal that all samples indexed didnt show in "samples" ??

Amaury
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by Amaury » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:40 am

androids wrote:
Amaury wrote:...

Nice to hear that you guys are investigating the problem.
Instead of a "scan/dont scan" on each folder, I could imagine that two different sections "Places (indexed)" and "Places (browsing)" could do the trick, so the user has the choice to place the folder where he wants to ...

BTW, is it normal that all samples indexed didnt show in "samples" ??
That's a solution for the GUI part that could work, yes. Closer to what I had in mind.

As for showing in Samples, only files from Packs and the User Library show in Categories for as of now, so yes it is normal.

Kind regards,
Amaury
Ableton Product Team

Rosko
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by Rosko » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:50 am

Right so when using push we can only use the packs, so we are forced to spend money on live packs.

Blendton
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by Blendton » Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:45 am

beatz01 wrote:@Amaury:

What so far has been ignored by Ableton is this:

The general conscencus seems to be

Make an option to switch indexing off

As long as this is not officially adressed, complaints will not stop.

Simple as that.
I agree and if the "OFF" switch became a reality, the whole thread should become "closed".

I taled about it in a phonecall with Abe's staff but at one point I've been answered that "commercial services" arent't able to take the call at this moment, I wasn't even thinking about what as now makes me scared :

1/ Don't care about our past little disagreemends, here we both consider this OFF switch as mandatory

2/ As customers we can do MY way : do with the new browser, no problems so far, may one but can't figure out if the crash was linked with the browser itself or the index file. Or do "no my" way : wait for the old fashion OR the new CHOICE option.

3/ Worry ? Yes I worry because I like the new it's true, but why the hell am I keeping my whole Suite 8 x86 + Library available next my Suite 9 x64, although it's useful for 32-bit/M4L devices reasons, because I like browsing the old way.

Here we should consider Ableton to be in a delicate situation : they promoted that browser. Their words are "NEW" or "FEATURE". This is on the marketing point of vue named an evolution. The "bug" encountered in a phonecall besides not being stating I wanted to discuss the "CHOICE" option with commercial hotline... All this thing makes me worrying about the time we'll have to wait until they put it on the guideline.

We didn't even asked for that "feature" dudes !

I'm sure Ableton is totally aware of what's mandatory in their duty, and in OUR rights. But unfortunately the "kill indexing" swtch would effectively be seen as "We recognize we did a mistake", from Ableton Staff.

To summarize : I did something in my upgrade process (the most part being leaving indexer doing its job the rest is waiting after launching Live, for 10min, before put my hands on it). I'm not "happy" because I'm sure I'll be disturbed some day by the new feature as it's called. So Suite 8 32-bit near in case. We are trying to manage with something we never asked to, even if I may have said "I wanted an indexer", we don't have to know what's an indexer in fact.

I suggest to all the following : spending less time to figure out what we don't understand or is just a BIG flaw on our workflow >>> rename the whole thread as "TO ABLETON STAFF : MANDATORY FEATURE MISSING" and do some sort of a class-action because even if a tech agrees with you in a phone call, his com/marketing mate will state some marketing language we don't care about.

(@beatz01 : Hoping I didn't disturb you with the post dude, and apologize for the french way to write in english, indeed, it can be difficult to read.)

Warm regards
Antoine, aka Blendton.

OS : Windows 8 Professional with Media Center - x64
Ableton Live 9 Suite (64-bit) & Ableton Suite 8 + Max for Live (32-bit)
Toshiba Qosmio F750 + lenticular glasses-free 3D
i7 2670QM 2,20GHz - 2x4GB DDR3-1333 - 5400rpm HDD

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