Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
beatz01
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by beatz01 » Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:16 am

mdk wrote:
probably too busy designing the browser around a piece of hardware that most of us will never use. :roll:
This.

It all seems like L9 was mainly designed with one purpose:

To push the sales of Push.

Or in other words, to have a similar product like Maschine, and to make L9 the Ableton equivalent of the Maschine software no matter what.

Amaury
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by Amaury » Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:48 am

mdk wrote:
beatz01 wrote:Amaury:

We don't need a 'don't scan this folder' feature.
We don't need faster indexing.

We need a general "Switch indexing off" feature.

As long as this isn't acknowledged by Ableton, everything else doesn't make sense.
Right, but as he pointed out, they've 'thrown out the baby with the bathwater' and now the browser depends entirely on the database, rather than keeping the old filesystem based approach as a fallback.

Depending on the architecture of the indexing system, satisfying our needs may be quite difficult. If the main Live app and the indexer have some form of IPC (inter-process communication) then what they could do is for user places, first do a breadth first folder scan and display those folders. Then keep running the indexer on those folders in whatever order UNLESS the user expands a particular folder. In that case you could then interrupt the indexer to scan the requested folder, updating the browser as its scanned. Then once that folder is complete return back to the previous queue.

That way you get both features, full indexing over time and rapid display of the data the user wants to see.

But if it's the case that Live and the indexer don't talk to each other at all, i.e. one populates the database and the other just displays whats in it, then you've basically got 2 options : 1. optimise the indexer to reduce the latency between adding and displaying content or 2. implement the above scheme but using the database itself as a means of communication, i.e. when you open a folder in the browser, add an entry to the db to say its been requested and have the indexer check for these prioritised entries at some point like with a timer based interrupt, at the end of a folder, after X entries etc..

That's my semi-educated guess at possible strategies.

From the sounds of it they're just focusing on optimising the indexing process itself rather than optimising the interaction between the user, live and the indexing system, but their responses are quite vague and I certainly don't expect them to provide any deep technical insights into what they're doing.

Just have to cross our fingers and hope for the best :)
We first are optimizing the indexer performance because that is a pre-requisite, we'll then look at optimizing the interaction between the browser and the indexer somewhat similar to what you describe.

Kind regards,
Amaury
Ableton Product Team

beatz01
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by beatz01 » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:20 am

Amaury wrote:We first are optimizing the indexer performance because that is a pre-requisite, we'll then look at optimizing the interaction between the browser and the indexer somewhat similar to what you describe.

Kind regards,
Amaury
So i guess that means to make indexing a (switchable) option is a "no option" for Ableton ?

Really, a clear straight answer to this question would be much appreciated.

skatr2
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by skatr2 » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:37 am

beatz01 wrote:
mdk wrote:
probably too busy designing the browser around a piece of hardware that most of us will never use. :roll:
This.

It all seems like L9 was mainly designed with one purpose:

To push the sales of Push.

Or in other words, to have a similar product like Maschine, and to make L9 the Ableton equivalent of the Maschine software no matter what.
I'm not really seeing the downside here. Truth is, many of us have been clamoring for something like push for years. A controller does the job but you spend more time getting it to work with Ableton than actually making music. Even the apc didn't meet production needs out the box. We had to wait and hope until someone tore apart the script to make it more functional.

Truth is Ableton was losing market share to NI as people started to get into maschine. They needed to compete as NI has a LOT more of a software spread that they are actively integrating. If live wasn't built around some form of central controller, they would have probably sealed their fate. Especially with live-like systems such as bitwig trying to grab up their share of the market. While the hardcore producers may be inconvenienced with their mass of samples they will likely never use, Ableton as a company needs to appeal to the broader populace.

Amaury
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by Amaury » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:40 am

beatz01 wrote:
Amaury wrote:We first are optimizing the indexer performance because that is a pre-requisite, we'll then look at optimizing the interaction between the browser and the indexer somewhat similar to what you describe.

Kind regards,
Amaury
So i guess that means to make indexing a (switchable) option is a "no option" for Ableton ?

Really, a clear straight answer to this question would be much appreciated.
No indexing at all is not an option. Making scanning more transparent is what we are working on. The browser is driven by the database, and we use the database and queries for many things, such as Hot-Swap filtering or search.

Once the scanning is made more transparent, we'll see what's left of wishes to "browse un-indexed locations" and decide then. We have to do it in this order.

Kind regards,
Amaury
Ableton Product Team

mdk
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by mdk » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:47 am

skatr2 wrote:A controller does the job but you spend more time getting it to work with Ableton than actually making music. Even the apc didn't meet production needs out the box. We had to wait and hope until someone tore apart the script to make it more functional.
That entirely depends on how you make music, for you and undoubtedly a lot of others the whole push / machine / apc thing is where its at and you want an optimised workflow based around that paradigm. For others a button-grid based preset-browser is neither here nor there.

Obviously the pain were experiencing is that existing workflows are being made to pay the price to support other flows that were not interested in, to continue my colloquialism theme its 'giving with one hand and taking with the other' :)
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Goddard
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by Goddard » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:48 am

skatr2 wrote:Truth is, many of us have been clamoring for something like push for years.
It's your "truth", mister... I don't give a shit about Push nor Maschine.
Just want to have all the new stuff with at least the same (better of course much appreciated...) performance as Live 8...
Is it too much to demand from the upgrade?
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skatr2
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by skatr2 » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:57 am

I get that. But as a company, Ableton won't be able to survive keeping their software so open. They really are a one trick pony, and when you are up against behemoth's like NI who are actively positioning themselves against you, you need to add more to your arsenal.

If push didn't have specific basic flow, (mind you usermode does give you personal customization), it wouldn't have sold and most of us looking for an integrated unit would have gone elsewhere. I don't need to chop samples to my unit...but I don't want one hand browsing on the computer while the other played samples...I had that already and its time for the next step.

I owned maschine and didn't like it. But the videos I have seen of push are similar to how I work. Very similar to how Hanz's APC script worked...which really helped nail down my personal work flow. ALSO this new setup may open it for other companies to employ similar integration. This is a win for most people...even if they aren't getting push specifically.

skatr2
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by skatr2 » Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:49 pm

Goddard wrote:
skatr2 wrote:Truth is, many of us have been clamoring for something like push for years.
It's your "truth", mister... I don't give a shit about Push nor Maschine.
Just want to have all the new stuff with at least the same (better of course much appreciated...) performance as Live 8...
Is it too much to demand from the upgrade?

That is my truth and many others'. I don't speak for you nor would I ever know what it is you are looking for. You have a 30 day opportunity to try live 9 to see if it meets your standards. If it doesn't...then demand better before you buy. If you were sucker enough to preorder then suck up your crap purchasing ideas. I am testing it right now before I buy it. So far IMO live 9 is easier to navigate than live 8...though I admit it seems to run a little slower and is a bit more resource intensive. It loads a little slower, but not to a point where its as debilitating as some describe. The improvements I have observed make for me a good upgrade worth my loot.

Just because YOU "mister" aren't looking for more hardware integration and are OK with a few bells and whistles added to software is your deal. The rest of us in the real world see the competitors making edges that could make ableton look like the limited use sequencer it once was and personally I would like to see them stick around longer against the other major brands. You stagnate and you end up getting devoured by those bigger companies and then we are all unhappy.

pencilrocket
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by pencilrocket » Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:08 pm

Goddard wrote:
skatr2 wrote:Truth is, many of us have been clamoring for something like push for years.
It's your "truth", mister... I don't give a shit about Push nor Maschine.
Just want to have all the new stuff with at least the same (better of course much appreciated...) performance as Live 8...
Is it too much to demand from the upgrade?
I agree. Live is DAW while Maschine isn't. Comparing doens't make sense at all.
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maky355
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by maky355 » Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:57 pm

Guys..is this a bad joke or something..

I am demoing Live 9 and browser is..WHAT THE HECK.

In Live 8 i could place Windows folder shortcuts in Live library and live 8 browser can see it. And every time i want to browse, drag to, save to, my folders which are on different drive, in Live 8 i can just browse to my shortcuts and drag to it and everything is saved where it needed to be.

Live 9 does not recognize Windows folder shortcut at ALL - That has to be a joke. They said that they improved it, but for some reason under "improved" they removed superb functionality..that has to be a joke right...i am simply missing something...

Do not tell me that i should just drag these folders to new browser because even if i do, live 9 does strange things and copies something whatever..

Why i can't use windows folder shortcut anymore??

In case anyone want to ask why i am using windows folder shortcut in my live 8 broweser, it's because it is super intuitive and i can keep my "real" files in place where i want (which is scheduled for periodical backup etc.etc.etc.)..

anyway it worked in live 8 beautiful..

c33
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by c33 » Thu Mar 21, 2013 6:38 pm

skatr2 wrote:I get that. But as a company, Ableton won't be able to survive keeping their software so open. They really are a one trick pony, and when you are up against behemoth's like NI who are actively positioning themselves against you, you need to add more to your arsenal.

If push didn't have specific basic flow, (mind you usermode does give you personal customization), it wouldn't have sold and most of us looking for an integrated unit would have gone elsewhere. I don't need to chop samples to my unit...but I don't want one hand browsing on the computer while the other played samples...I had that already and its time for the next step.

I owned maschine and didn't like it. But the videos I have seen of push are similar to how I work. Very similar to how Hanz's APC script worked...which really helped nail down my personal work flow. ALSO this new setup may open it for other companies to employ similar integration. This is a win for most people...even if they aren't getting push specifically.
It seems like I occasionally see posts around here that talk about Ableton as though it's a company teetering on the edge of ruin. No. Push may be a big part of the next step in Ableton's evolution, but Live on its own continues to hold its own (and then some), and it's not going anywhere anytime soon. There's a lot more than one trick to that pony!

Anyway, back to the browser. I haven't upgraded but I'm sorry to read so many are having issues with it right now.

drez
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by drez » Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:13 am

Amaury,

Can you say if Live is using an embedded SQL, "No SQL", or home grown database solution?
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friend_kami
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by friend_kami » Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:39 am

Amaury wrote:
ezelkow1 wrote:
Amaury wrote:...
So would something like what others have suggested not be possible, the solution where at least in the places section you could immediately show all files but continue indexing them in the background to show up in the browser and searches? That way you get the best of both worlds, the user doesnt have to turn on/off indexing, but they still get immediate access to any files in their places while still being able to eventually find them in the browser area and searches once they are indexed
That's imaginable yes. After we fix the indexer performances, we actually want to look into something of this effect.
i'm curious. how come it's not fixed?
how come it wasn't fixed on release?
this was an active and ongoing topic on the beta boards, so you obviously knew about the problem since you participated in the conversations about it.

mdk
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by mdk » Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:31 am

drez wrote:Amaury,

Can you say if Live is using an embedded SQL, "No SQL", or home grown database solution?
its sqlite 3. you can find the .db files in some of the program folders. they're not hidden :)
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