Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
drez
Posts: 497
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 10:23 pm
Location: Dallas, TX

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by drez » Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:37 pm

Just saw this in the release notes for 9.0.3b1:

Bugfixes:

Scanning folders containing a huge amount of files could take longer than necessary.
Last edited by drez on Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
http://www.twitter.com/dreznicek
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MacBook Pro Retina Laptop, 2.7Ghz i7, 16Gig RAM, 500G SSD, Live 9, Push, Novation SL25 Mk2, iPad (TouchOSC, Lemur, Touch-Able), Reason

H20nly
Posts: 15836
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:15 pm
Location: The Wild West

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by H20nly » Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:40 pm

Goddard wrote:Just want to confirm that my 9.0.2 still runs smooth as a dream...
My problems (crashes) were related to Automap...
As an old conservative prick I still have my Automap Pro 3.7.4. (the last one you had to pay for...) installed on my iMac. Time to update this one as well...
On MBP I have Automap 4 and had no issues with 9.0.2 at all.
Greetings.
Skål!
that's good to know. thanks for taking the time to update your status.

what about indexing now? do you see anything at all you would consider disruptive from the new browser, not where the folders are and all that, but the indexing and/or choking that others have described?

zeepster
Posts: 310
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:03 pm

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by zeepster » Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:53 pm

Live 9 is getting zero use, apart from one project that i started in 9. Wish i could rveert that back to 8 too.
The new workflow is killing me in 9.

Let me browse my disks in the browser normally. I'm not gonna add every nook and cranny location. And i'm not going to let live 9 eat up my ssd with their indexing. And stop closing my folders.

For the rest i'm using only 8.

maky355
Posts: 206
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:10 am

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by maky355 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:09 pm

I can't grasp why they don't allow us to use windows folder shortcuts and why oh why we can't simply stop indexing??

Just make it optional ON, or OFF and be done with it..Everyone pleased..

drez
Posts: 497
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 10:23 pm
Location: Dallas, TX

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by drez » Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:33 pm

maky355 wrote:I can't grasp why they don't allow us to use windows folder shortcuts and why oh why we can't simply stop indexing??

Just make it optional ON, or OFF and be done with it..Everyone pleased..
I'm just guessing, but I would assume its because...they can't :-)

IMO, Ableton made a decision to move to the embedded database for browsing. Period. They did not architect the new browser to accept the previous method of browsing. It is "wired", if you will, to the database. The UI, the underlying methods to retrieve this file locations in Live and display them to you, etc. Its just not there. There's no "switch" to flip. They would have to re-architect and re-code the browser, something that would take a considerable time and resources. Architecture changes and these decisions happened months ago and they take months to change.

They also probably realized during the beta period that they had some massive tuning issues with the embedded database/data model/indexing structure/sql configuration/etc when people with large sample libraries had to insert data into the database. A business decision had to be made:

1. Ableton believes in the new database architecture and feel with proper tuning they can get through these data loading issues.
2. They have to delay the release and rewrite/rearchitect the browser and file management to work in Live 9 like Live 8.
3. A hybrid solution: They tune the database now to alleviate most of the issues with speed and design a way to integrate a Live 8 "like" method of browsing within the Live 9 architecture to fix workflow issues for certain users that like the previous browsing methods.

I think they are going with 3.

Live 9.0.3b1 just came out and the release notes say that they have a bugfix for scanning folders containing a huge amout of files ould take longer than necessary. I think they have changed the way they bulk load data into the database (there are a ton of ways, and well documented ways, to optimize this process). This is a quick win for them (if it works) and then they can focus on rewriting some portions to help with workflow issues.

Just spit ballin ;-)
http://www.twitter.com/dreznicek
http://www.soundcloud.com/dreznicek
MacBook Pro Retina Laptop, 2.7Ghz i7, 16Gig RAM, 500G SSD, Live 9, Push, Novation SL25 Mk2, iPad (TouchOSC, Lemur, Touch-Able), Reason

skatr2
Posts: 450
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:38 pm

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by skatr2 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:54 pm

maky355 wrote:I can't grasp why they don't allow us to use windows folder shortcuts and why oh why we can't simply stop indexing??

Just make it optional ON, or OFF and be done with it..Everyone pleased..
hate to break it to you but they already started this is not an option.

H20nly
Posts: 15836
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:15 pm
Location: The Wild West

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by H20nly » Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:46 pm

skatr2 wrote:
maky355 wrote:I can't grasp why they don't allow us to use windows folder shortcuts and why oh why we can't simply stop indexing??

Just make it optional ON, or OFF and be done with it..Everyone pleased..
hate to break it to you but they already started this is not an option.
yeah, it was in this very thread... explained by Ableton staff.

there were multiple posts about it, if i'm not mistaken.

3dot...
Posts: 9996
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:10 pm

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by 3dot... » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:31 pm

tsk tsk tsk...
Image

androids
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 6:12 am

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by androids » Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:49 am

drez wrote:
maky355 wrote:I can't grasp why they don't allow us to use windows folder shortcuts and why oh why we can't simply stop indexing??

Just make it optional ON, or OFF and be done with it..Everyone pleased..
I'm just guessing, but I would assume its because...they can't :-)

IMO, Ableton made a decision to move to the embedded database for browsing. Period. They did not architect the new browser to accept the previous method of browsing. It is "wired", if you will, to the database. The UI, the underlying methods to retrieve this file locations in Live and display them to you, etc. Its just not there. There's no "switch" to flip. They would have to re-architect and re-code the browser, something that would take a considerable time and resources. Architecture changes and these decisions happened months ago and they take months to change.

They also probably realized during the beta period that they had some massive tuning issues with the embedded database/data model/indexing structure/sql configuration/etc when people with large sample libraries had to insert data into the database. A business decision had to be made:

1. Ableton believes in the new database architecture and feel with proper tuning they can get through these data loading issues.
2. They have to delay the release and rewrite/rearchitect the browser and file management to work in Live 9 like Live 8.
3. A hybrid solution: They tune the database now to alleviate most of the issues with speed and design a way to integrate a Live 8 "like" method of browsing within the Live 9 architecture to fix workflow issues for certain users that like the previous browsing methods.

I think they are going with 3.

Live 9.0.3b1 just came out and the release notes say that they have a bugfix for scanning folders containing a huge amout of files ould take longer than necessary. I think they have changed the way they bulk load data into the database (there are a ton of ways, and well documented ways, to optimize this process). This is a quick win for them (if it works) and then they can focus on rewriting some portions to help with workflow issues.

Just spit ballin ;-)

The solution is plain simple : continue indexing in the background but allow to browse the whole structure even if background indexer has not finished its work ...

If ableton stops at that bugfix :
"Scanning folders containing a huge amount of files could take longer than necessary"

then they are just missing the important point.

skatr2
Posts: 450
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:38 pm

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by skatr2 » Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:43 am

androids wrote:
drez wrote:
maky355 wrote:I can't grasp why they don't allow us to use windows folder shortcuts and why oh why we can't simply stop indexing??

Just make it optional ON, or OFF and be done with it..Everyone pleased..
I'm just guessing, but I would assume its because...they can't :-)

IMO, Ableton made a decision to move to the embedded database for browsing. Period. They did not architect the new browser to accept the previous method of browsing. It is "wired", if you will, to the database. The UI, the underlying methods to retrieve this file locations in Live and display them to you, etc. Its just not there. There's no "switch" to flip. They would have to re-architect and re-code the browser, something that would take a considerable time and resources. Architecture changes and these decisions happened months ago and they take months to change.

They also probably realized during the beta period that they had some massive tuning issues with the embedded database/data model/indexing structure/sql configuration/etc when people with large sample libraries had to insert data into the database. A business decision had to be made:

1. Ableton believes in the new database architecture and feel with proper tuning they can get through these data loading issues.
2. They have to delay the release and rewrite/rearchitect the browser and file management to work in Live 9 like Live 8.
3. A hybrid solution: They tune the database now to alleviate most of the issues with speed and design a way to integrate a Live 8 "like" method of browsing within the Live 9 architecture to fix workflow issues for certain users that like the previous browsing methods.

I think they are going with 3.

Live 9.0.3b1 just came out and the release notes say that they have a bugfix for scanning folders containing a huge amout of files ould take longer than necessary. I think they have changed the way they bulk load data into the database (there are a ton of ways, and well documented ways, to optimize this process). This is a quick win for them (if it works) and then they can focus on rewriting some portions to help with workflow issues.

Just spit ballin ;-)

The solution is plain simple : continue indexing in the background but allow to browse the whole structure even if background indexer has not finished its work ...

If ableton stops at that bugfix :
"Scanning folders containing a huge amount of files could take longer than necessary"

then they are just missing the important point.
nothing is ever as simple as you make it sound. they flat out said a browser is not going to be implemented outside of the indexer. period. chances are they can't allow this functionality without impacting the indexer.

DoubleDub
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2010 8:50 pm

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by DoubleDub » Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:06 pm

drez wrote:
maky355 wrote: 1. Ableton believes in the new database architecture and feel with proper tuning they can get through these data loading issues.
2. They have to delay the release and rewrite/rearchitect the browser and file management to work in Live 9 like Live 8.
3. A hybrid solution: They tune the database now to alleviate most of the issues with speed and design a way to integrate a Live 8 "like" method of browsing within the Live 9 architecture to fix workflow issues for certain users that like the previous browsing methods.
I think they are going with 3.
Yeap, it's my guessing also, and some heads will roll as well since they did not face the problem early enough.
The question is if the architecture they have choosen is capable to find this balance?
As mentioned several times by other guys here, it's the freedom of everybody to follow this new route or to switch to another DAW. I'm on hold with Live9, but I cannot wait with the music production, and before I stuck within 6 months time I made a decision and bought and learn another DAW (guessing? :-))) After 7 years Ableton gave me a hard nugget, so before I listen to 40min harddisc noises everyday, I go parallel.

pencilrocket
Posts: 1718
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:46 am

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by pencilrocket » Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:52 pm

You can keep using 8. Why 9 or Switch immediately?
Image

androids
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 6:12 am

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by androids » Thu Mar 28, 2013 1:01 pm

pencilrocket wrote:You can keep using 8. Why 9 or Switch immediately?
64 bits and Push ...

skatr2
Posts: 450
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:38 pm

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by skatr2 » Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:00 pm

androids wrote:
pencilrocket wrote:You can keep using 8. Why 9 or Switch immediately?
64 bits and Push ...
64 bits is on 8 now. from what I understand, the reason push works with live 9 and not with 8 its partially because of the database. so essentially you just need to see where your priorities lie.

sp0bjogu
Posts: 59
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 6:19 pm

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by sp0bjogu » Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:10 pm

H20nly wrote:yeah, it was in this very thread... explained by Ableton staff.

there were multiple posts about it, if i'm not mistaken.
Link, or it didn't happen.

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