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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:37 pm
by drez
Just saw this in the release notes for 9.0.3b1:

Bugfixes:

Scanning folders containing a huge amount of files could take longer than necessary.

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:40 pm
by H20nly
Goddard wrote:Just want to confirm that my 9.0.2 still runs smooth as a dream...
My problems (crashes) were related to Automap...
As an old conservative prick I still have my Automap Pro 3.7.4. (the last one you had to pay for...) installed on my iMac. Time to update this one as well...
On MBP I have Automap 4 and had no issues with 9.0.2 at all.
Greetings.
Skål!
that's good to know. thanks for taking the time to update your status.

what about indexing now? do you see anything at all you would consider disruptive from the new browser, not where the folders are and all that, but the indexing and/or choking that others have described?

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:53 pm
by zeepster
Live 9 is getting zero use, apart from one project that i started in 9. Wish i could rveert that back to 8 too.
The new workflow is killing me in 9.

Let me browse my disks in the browser normally. I'm not gonna add every nook and cranny location. And i'm not going to let live 9 eat up my ssd with their indexing. And stop closing my folders.

For the rest i'm using only 8.

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:09 pm
by maky355
I can't grasp why they don't allow us to use windows folder shortcuts and why oh why we can't simply stop indexing??

Just make it optional ON, or OFF and be done with it..Everyone pleased..

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:33 pm
by drez
maky355 wrote:I can't grasp why they don't allow us to use windows folder shortcuts and why oh why we can't simply stop indexing??

Just make it optional ON, or OFF and be done with it..Everyone pleased..
I'm just guessing, but I would assume its because...they can't :-)

IMO, Ableton made a decision to move to the embedded database for browsing. Period. They did not architect the new browser to accept the previous method of browsing. It is "wired", if you will, to the database. The UI, the underlying methods to retrieve this file locations in Live and display them to you, etc. Its just not there. There's no "switch" to flip. They would have to re-architect and re-code the browser, something that would take a considerable time and resources. Architecture changes and these decisions happened months ago and they take months to change.

They also probably realized during the beta period that they had some massive tuning issues with the embedded database/data model/indexing structure/sql configuration/etc when people with large sample libraries had to insert data into the database. A business decision had to be made:

1. Ableton believes in the new database architecture and feel with proper tuning they can get through these data loading issues.
2. They have to delay the release and rewrite/rearchitect the browser and file management to work in Live 9 like Live 8.
3. A hybrid solution: They tune the database now to alleviate most of the issues with speed and design a way to integrate a Live 8 "like" method of browsing within the Live 9 architecture to fix workflow issues for certain users that like the previous browsing methods.

I think they are going with 3.

Live 9.0.3b1 just came out and the release notes say that they have a bugfix for scanning folders containing a huge amout of files ould take longer than necessary. I think they have changed the way they bulk load data into the database (there are a ton of ways, and well documented ways, to optimize this process). This is a quick win for them (if it works) and then they can focus on rewriting some portions to help with workflow issues.

Just spit ballin ;-)

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:54 pm
by skatr2
maky355 wrote:I can't grasp why they don't allow us to use windows folder shortcuts and why oh why we can't simply stop indexing??

Just make it optional ON, or OFF and be done with it..Everyone pleased..
hate to break it to you but they already started this is not an option.

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:46 pm
by H20nly
skatr2 wrote:
maky355 wrote:I can't grasp why they don't allow us to use windows folder shortcuts and why oh why we can't simply stop indexing??

Just make it optional ON, or OFF and be done with it..Everyone pleased..
hate to break it to you but they already started this is not an option.
yeah, it was in this very thread... explained by Ableton staff.

there were multiple posts about it, if i'm not mistaken.

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:31 pm
by 3dot...
tsk tsk tsk...

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:49 am
by androids
drez wrote:
maky355 wrote:I can't grasp why they don't allow us to use windows folder shortcuts and why oh why we can't simply stop indexing??

Just make it optional ON, or OFF and be done with it..Everyone pleased..
I'm just guessing, but I would assume its because...they can't :-)

IMO, Ableton made a decision to move to the embedded database for browsing. Period. They did not architect the new browser to accept the previous method of browsing. It is "wired", if you will, to the database. The UI, the underlying methods to retrieve this file locations in Live and display them to you, etc. Its just not there. There's no "switch" to flip. They would have to re-architect and re-code the browser, something that would take a considerable time and resources. Architecture changes and these decisions happened months ago and they take months to change.

They also probably realized during the beta period that they had some massive tuning issues with the embedded database/data model/indexing structure/sql configuration/etc when people with large sample libraries had to insert data into the database. A business decision had to be made:

1. Ableton believes in the new database architecture and feel with proper tuning they can get through these data loading issues.
2. They have to delay the release and rewrite/rearchitect the browser and file management to work in Live 9 like Live 8.
3. A hybrid solution: They tune the database now to alleviate most of the issues with speed and design a way to integrate a Live 8 "like" method of browsing within the Live 9 architecture to fix workflow issues for certain users that like the previous browsing methods.

I think they are going with 3.

Live 9.0.3b1 just came out and the release notes say that they have a bugfix for scanning folders containing a huge amout of files ould take longer than necessary. I think they have changed the way they bulk load data into the database (there are a ton of ways, and well documented ways, to optimize this process). This is a quick win for them (if it works) and then they can focus on rewriting some portions to help with workflow issues.

Just spit ballin ;-)

The solution is plain simple : continue indexing in the background but allow to browse the whole structure even if background indexer has not finished its work ...

If ableton stops at that bugfix :
"Scanning folders containing a huge amount of files could take longer than necessary"

then they are just missing the important point.

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:43 am
by skatr2
androids wrote:
drez wrote:
maky355 wrote:I can't grasp why they don't allow us to use windows folder shortcuts and why oh why we can't simply stop indexing??

Just make it optional ON, or OFF and be done with it..Everyone pleased..
I'm just guessing, but I would assume its because...they can't :-)

IMO, Ableton made a decision to move to the embedded database for browsing. Period. They did not architect the new browser to accept the previous method of browsing. It is "wired", if you will, to the database. The UI, the underlying methods to retrieve this file locations in Live and display them to you, etc. Its just not there. There's no "switch" to flip. They would have to re-architect and re-code the browser, something that would take a considerable time and resources. Architecture changes and these decisions happened months ago and they take months to change.

They also probably realized during the beta period that they had some massive tuning issues with the embedded database/data model/indexing structure/sql configuration/etc when people with large sample libraries had to insert data into the database. A business decision had to be made:

1. Ableton believes in the new database architecture and feel with proper tuning they can get through these data loading issues.
2. They have to delay the release and rewrite/rearchitect the browser and file management to work in Live 9 like Live 8.
3. A hybrid solution: They tune the database now to alleviate most of the issues with speed and design a way to integrate a Live 8 "like" method of browsing within the Live 9 architecture to fix workflow issues for certain users that like the previous browsing methods.

I think they are going with 3.

Live 9.0.3b1 just came out and the release notes say that they have a bugfix for scanning folders containing a huge amout of files ould take longer than necessary. I think they have changed the way they bulk load data into the database (there are a ton of ways, and well documented ways, to optimize this process). This is a quick win for them (if it works) and then they can focus on rewriting some portions to help with workflow issues.

Just spit ballin ;-)

The solution is plain simple : continue indexing in the background but allow to browse the whole structure even if background indexer has not finished its work ...

If ableton stops at that bugfix :
"Scanning folders containing a huge amount of files could take longer than necessary"

then they are just missing the important point.
nothing is ever as simple as you make it sound. they flat out said a browser is not going to be implemented outside of the indexer. period. chances are they can't allow this functionality without impacting the indexer.

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:06 pm
by DoubleDub
drez wrote:
maky355 wrote: 1. Ableton believes in the new database architecture and feel with proper tuning they can get through these data loading issues.
2. They have to delay the release and rewrite/rearchitect the browser and file management to work in Live 9 like Live 8.
3. A hybrid solution: They tune the database now to alleviate most of the issues with speed and design a way to integrate a Live 8 "like" method of browsing within the Live 9 architecture to fix workflow issues for certain users that like the previous browsing methods.
I think they are going with 3.
Yeap, it's my guessing also, and some heads will roll as well since they did not face the problem early enough.
The question is if the architecture they have choosen is capable to find this balance?
As mentioned several times by other guys here, it's the freedom of everybody to follow this new route or to switch to another DAW. I'm on hold with Live9, but I cannot wait with the music production, and before I stuck within 6 months time I made a decision and bought and learn another DAW (guessing? :-))) After 7 years Ableton gave me a hard nugget, so before I listen to 40min harddisc noises everyday, I go parallel.

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:52 pm
by pencilrocket
You can keep using 8. Why 9 or Switch immediately?

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 1:01 pm
by androids
pencilrocket wrote:You can keep using 8. Why 9 or Switch immediately?
64 bits and Push ...

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:00 pm
by skatr2
androids wrote:
pencilrocket wrote:You can keep using 8. Why 9 or Switch immediately?
64 bits and Push ...
64 bits is on 8 now. from what I understand, the reason push works with live 9 and not with 8 its partially because of the database. so essentially you just need to see where your priorities lie.

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:10 pm
by sp0bjogu
H20nly wrote:yeah, it was in this very thread... explained by Ableton staff.

there were multiple posts about it, if i'm not mistaken.
Link, or it didn't happen.