Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
androids
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by androids » Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:37 pm

funken wrote:Mine only took an hour or 2, ... about 100GB or so.
1-2 hours for 100go, that's incredibly slow or is it me ? :?

su
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by su » Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:17 pm

tldr, Here are my experiences using Live 9's browser. I find I can access things more efficiently than with Live 8's browser.

Thought I'd throw 2 cents in here about my experience with the browser.

As background, I just upgraded the OS on my DAW to Windows 7 and used the occassion to do major house cleaning. It seems like some of the headaches folks are having are associated with going from Live 8 to 9. I started fresh with 9 on this machine and basically rebuilt from the ground up.

Like others, all my non Ableton Live samples are stored on a different drive than the Live library. Mine are stored in a single directory. I have about 25 GB of samples. I added my sample folder to Places. I didn't clock it super carefully but Live seemed to take less than 10 minutes to index the samples. With L8 I'd always have to remember which of the 3 browser folders to access samples from. Now my sample folder is always visible so getting to samples seems much quicker. I can see how the unorganized dump of samples in categories/samples is annoying to some. I'm planning to access Live's sample content through categories/sounds by auditioning sounds and extracting samples from Live devices rather than pulling them out of categories/sounds. In general, I feel like I'm able to dial in usable sounds more quickly with the new browser.

I have about a half dozen Puremagnetik packs. In Live 8, the racks for those packs used to get stored in a single location. No longer. These packs get installed as "legacy packs". In order to get to the racks for these packs you have to click through about a half dozen subfolders. I made a "legacy packs" folder in "user library" under places and copied all the racks there. I then added that folder under places. Took a few steps, but accessing these racks is much easier than in Live 8 and I'll probably use this content more than in the past.

Similarly, I made a folder in the user library for 3rd party max devices. Anything I've thrown in the folder has shown up in categories/max for live plus I can access devices through the user library location.

What's really speeding up workflow is to use the browser's search function like Windows 7s search. In many cases I know the name of what I'm looking for, so hitting ctrl F and searching gets me to where I want much more quickly than clicking trough folders. For things that are named systematically that I access regularly (like sample sets where all samples begin with same word) I've started a running list of strings to search for.

I did everything with Live open.

[edited - clarity]
Last edited by su on Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

androids
Posts: 70
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by androids » Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:28 pm

Seems that nightmares only come out if your sample lib is large (200go and up ?)

Just tried to add a folder to my sample lib with explorer (live closed).

Launched live : it took 8 minutes to show the new folder in "places" ... 8 minutes 8O 8O


[Library size : 2.4 To, 2'267'497 Files, 113'978 Folders]

Ableton Denver
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by Ableton Denver » Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:07 pm

Update : My external drive has indeed failed because of the Ableton indexing. Who gets the bill?

We have identified another problem with the indexing - in short you can not use external drives with live 8.5 (we decided to stop calling it 9)

Here's the scenario:

Use an external drive, it actually gets parsed.

remove the drive, add a folder of samples to it outside of Ableton.

Reconnect drive, only 2 options are available:

1-The drive needs to be reindexed to reflect changes -- not acceptable / anti-pattern.

or

2- not reindex and represents false data -- not acceptable / anti-pattern.

We had a meet up last night (formerly Ableton Colorado not a generic music group celebrating all DAWs) and the overwhelming consensus was that this is indeed an anti pattern and my assumptions are correct.

To no extend the native browser function and require indexing is bad.

As to all the nay-sayers over why you use a big library / too many samples - let's kill the discussion right here and now via a question I put ot my producer friends who work in studios, some form the big houses in Nashville. Yes, they keep terrabyte drives full of samples in the building, this is normal to pull for projects as needed. Ableton is disqualified from professional use by breaking the browser - real studios can't afford this time to scan a client or studio drive.
closed the user group on purpose.

androids
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by androids » Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:32 pm

Ableton Denver wrote: remove the drive, add a folder of samples to it outside of Ableton.

Reconnect drive, only 2 options are available:

1-The drive needs to be reindexed to reflect changes -- not acceptable / anti-pattern.

or

2- not reindex and represents false data -- not acceptable / anti-pattern.

if you quit Live and launch it again after you have your drive reconnected, the indexer find the new folder, but the biggest is your sample collection the longest it takes to shows the changes.
Last edited by androids on Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

JeffreyCJohnson
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by JeffreyCJohnson » Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:53 pm

snakedogman wrote:
JeffreyCJohnson wrote: Also, there's a typo in the Live 9 documentation:

> 5.1.2 User Folders
> . . .
> In order to work with your own folders in Live,
> you must first add them to the browser, either by
> dropping them directly into Live from the Explorer
> . . .
> After adding a user folder, Live will scan it,
> which “teaches” the browser about its contents
> . . .
> Note: adding a user folder does not actually move the folder to a new location

It doesn't move the files, it COPIES the files, and if you don't know that's happening you will loose valuable edits.

Following directions, I dropped the top-level directory of my largest user folder onto the browser from Explorer. The fact that it was my Live 8 library is irrelevant. :) Live 9 took two hours making a duplicate copy of all the files and folders... it took so long I expected stellar indexing results. (On the same drive it only takes Explorer 12 minutes to copy the same branch.) When Live was finished the user folder hierarchy was still mostly blank, and when the files did show up it was usually in very long lists; 1000's of files in one scroll box with *more* at the end.
I'm not sure what happened there but I've added a bunch of user folders to the places section in the browser and at no point did it move or copy anything. If I drop my "drums" sample folder of about 9 GB from explorer onto the browser it just appears as it should. Live "thinks" for about two seconds and then it's done.
Can you replicate the behaviour you describe?
Yes. Adding the folder to PLACES in the browser works as described, but dropping the folder onto the browser from Explorer copied the entire branch. Technically, the documentation is correct in that nothing "moved" on the disk; the branch was copied, and that was unexpected.

Now that I've had time to think about it, I would prefer having Live 9 perform a one-time one-way library+projects conversion to the new format, fully incorporated into the browser as if it had been built from scratch using Live 9 without the baggage of having a Live 8 library in PLACES. Is that possible?

beatz01
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by beatz01 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:56 pm

Glad you guys bring this and other flaws up because it means i surely will NOT buy L9 until all these design flaws are corrected.

donmich
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by donmich » Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:26 pm

So does anyone know if ableton are responding to or addressing these issues in a serious way? Have they ever responded to negative feedback about the browser? I keep running into user reactions that range from being miffed to full on rage in a number of forums. I tried the beta but didnt have the time to participate in the beta forum. Surely these issues must have come up there...

Ableton Denver
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by Ableton Denver » Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:30 pm

I am pretty active on these threads as my Live9 is down and I lost one hard drive already via the indexing. (have to recheck + scan drive in OSX w/warnings and intermittent success reaching files)

I have a few threads in here, tech support ticket, and I called as well. They are getting these reports and I have clearly outlined that they need to fix this asap.

We need to keep the head on Ableton as Ableton 8.5 (aka 9) is pretty busted, no-browsing large libraries, and I have legitimately lost a drive (as predicted).
closed the user group on purpose.

TYLRbass
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by TYLRbass » Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:49 pm

I'm absolutely shocked that you cannot simply navigate your drives.. I'm having to use Finder for this, which is ridiculous when you think about it
Image

ShelLuser
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by ShelLuser » Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:54 pm

ezelkow1 wrote:For your issue, make sure anything you add you have done so while live is running. It was a known and unfixed issue where live will only index changes to your 'places' while it is running, so if you have a directory indexed, close live, add files, then re-open, they wont be there. You have to remove and re-add with live open since it will only pick up changes while running
Thanks for the tip, this seems to work quite well so far.

I've became quite annoyed with the browser due to several M4l devices (shared between a friend and me) not showing up quickly enough. And indeed; keeping Live running seems to fix that, now things become almost immediately available.

That's one major annoyance out of the way, that's good.
With kind regards,

Peter

Using the 'Power' Trio: Live 10 Suite (+ Push & Max 8 ), Reason 10 and Maschine Mk3 (+ the ultimate Komplete 12).
Blog: SynthFan (under heavy construction!)

ShelLuser
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by ShelLuser » Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:58 pm

donmich wrote:So does anyone know if ableton are responding to or addressing these issues in a serious way? Have they ever responded to negative feedback about the browser?
I can't comment on their feedback, but the best way to bring stuff to their attention is by contacting support IMO.

These forums do get read as far as I know, but support is usually the best way to go.
With kind regards,

Peter

Using the 'Power' Trio: Live 10 Suite (+ Push & Max 8 ), Reason 10 and Maschine Mk3 (+ the ultimate Komplete 12).
Blog: SynthFan (under heavy construction!)

agent314
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by agent314 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:05 pm

These forums do get read as far as I know, but support is usually the best way to go.
Unfortunately, as far as I can tell a lot of folks seem to want an audience for their ventings and meltdowns more than they want to get their problems actually fixed.

TYLRbass
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by TYLRbass » Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:28 pm

ShelLuser wrote:
donmich wrote:So does anyone know if ableton are responding to or addressing these issues in a serious way? Have they ever responded to negative feedback about the browser?
I can't comment on their feedback, but the best way to bring stuff to their attention is by contacting support IMO.

These forums do get read as far as I know, but support is usually the best way to go.
I put in two support requests the other day, the first one (having to do with the browser) never got answered but the second one (dealing with downloading Live packs) was answered quickly..

You would think that they would go in order of received, but obviously they decided not to answer my browser e-mail or maybe want to stall on that until they can come up with some half-assed answer that deflects my attention from the real problem.

I can tell you one thing, they definitely were picking and choosing which threads to acknowledge in the beta phase, even though some posts had 30 or more +1's
Image

donmich
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by donmich » Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:53 pm

ShelLuser wrote:
donmich wrote:So does anyone know if ableton are responding to or addressing these issues in a serious way? Have they ever responded to negative feedback about the browser?
I can't comment on their feedback, but the best way to bring stuff to their attention is by contacting support IMO.

These forums do get read as far as I know, but support is usually the best way to go.
...coming from a guy that blogged about it and warned people about on on the propellerhead forum. :roll:

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