Happy with Live 9?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
JuanSOLO
Posts: 3236
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2007 8:21 am
Location: Shreveport LA, sometimes Dallas/Ft Worth TX

Re: Happy with Live 9?

Post by JuanSOLO » Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:41 pm

I dig it, I got 1 thing I really wanted, Rec Automation to Session.
I really like the way it works, I dig the new O button and how that is implemented.
When I fired up the beta and started testing it with my APC40, clicked ovr button, I thought "HELL YEAH Perfect!"
It was weird to adjust to warping tracks when they changed that, now I would hate to go back, I feel the same about the browser.
I got some things I didn't expect, like EQ8, compressor, updates that are fantastic. Effects I use on EVERY TRACK.
There are some M4L calls that work like I wanted them too before 9, now I can send a call that selects a device, bluehands it, AND brings it into view. FUCK YEAH if you use controllers and want to keep a small cohesive footprint.

Performance wise, it's not a whole lot different than 8 was for me.
Sure there are TONS of things I think they should add, some things that make Live look primitive in relation to other software.
Traktor's midi editing is still lightyears beyond Ableton Live.
Nevertheless, I have been using Live in a very specific way for a long time, optimizing a Live Set, streamlining my workflow around Lives limitations. I'm just as much OK with that as I was with Live 3-8.

It's weird to see posts from people getting specifically different results that I am experiencing, for example I thought a new Live Set seemed to start up lighting fast.

Personally I am happy to see PUSH as an example that Ableton still think of themselves as a company whos trying to make the laptop an instrument, even though I will not get PUSH. Still there's a ton of things I can think of to make Live more live and less mouse and screen.

For me Live is just a tool to create, I never expect it to do everything I desire, and if there is something it doesn't do, I can find something that does. For example if I need specifically tight timing when sequencing VST's, External Gear, whatever I can always get a product that is known for that, like a Cirklon.
That said, I modded the M4L MonoSequencer to be controlled by my APC40 much like an Elektron product works, only I get to custom tailor is to exactly what I need, Thats WAY COOL TO ME.

For me the whole "typing in specific values" is the kind of thing that makes me want to ditch a Laptop over hardware. I understand people get off on being so specific, to each their own, but I just dont work like that.
I'm more of a "happy mistakes" kind of person, OR if something doesn't work the way I want it, I move on instead of getting emotional about it.

Buleriachk
Posts: 1257
Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2002 3:52 am
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Contact:

Re: Happy with Live 9?

Post by Buleriachk » Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:43 pm

In general, I am happy with Live 9. My only complaint is that it doesn't allow us to select clips for scene launch (which is a major omission, IMO, and creates real awkwardness that can only be resolved with ClyphX to do very, very simple things....)

Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?... :-)

aberkow
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 2:03 am

Re: Happy with Live 9?

Post by aberkow » Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:01 am

I'm really happy with this upgrade. In particular I like the convert to MIDI feature. My primary instruments are clarinet and bass clarinet. My keyboard skills are pretty weak though so to quickly sketch out an idea this feature is a huge benefit.

timday
Posts: 553
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 1:02 pm

Re: Happy with Live 9?

Post by timday » Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:05 am

Mostly happy except for the browser which is terrible for me.

geometrygod
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:35 pm

Re: Happy with Live 9?

Post by geometrygod » Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:35 am

Live 9 is simply awesome.

I also have been avoiding many of the posts on this forum because of all the bitching and moaning. C'mon guys, show some Love! This is an Excellent program.

Cant wait for my Push to come in the mail!

**rubs hands together** ;)

monohusche
Posts: 190
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:28 pm
Location: Hongkong

Re: Happy with Live 9?

Post by monohusche » Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:11 am

RhinoInRio wrote:...I am.
So far I've had it about a week now and been playing around here and there, and reading this forum.
I must say, it needs a bit of getting used too, if you are used to the older versions. Especially the new Midi arrangement Overdub, the Automation Arm, re-enable automation, and the session record buttons are a bit confusing in the beginning. But after messing around with it for a while it becomes clearer. I must admit I never really missed these functions before, because there was always a way to get to the end result somehow before for my uses. Sure, the new browser also needs some getting used to, but hey, it'll work (even better than before).
My favorites are the new and overdone FX and M4L. Wow, a whole new universe to explore - especially M4L. I guess it's beyond me and I am extremely grateful to those who understand how to program all these new instruments and FX with M4L and what not. I'm just a user. Keep it up. ...and share :)

What I find sad though, is this continuous nagging and dissing going on in this forum about Live, about Ableton, about what should have been done, the price, the marketing....
What is wrong with these people who can not have constructive arguments or opinions without getting personal and let their anger out about who knows what on this forum? Ableton and their products are great. And they are getting better all the time. Sure, good software costs money. That's the way it is. If you buy it and are unhappy with it then you bought the wrong program. Ableton has over the years always listened to reasonable wishes and constructive advice of users to make it what is now and what was possible. It can always get better, and it does. But for me personally there is no other program out there that makes music making so much fun and has so many (endless) possibilities as Live.

Abletons' service is helpful and (usually) quite fast. The hardware integration is remarkable and easy. Live is a standalone all-in-one more-than-a-studio in a box. For me, it's more than I could have ever wished for in a recording program.

Well, that's it, I just had to get rid of it.
And NO, I don't have any ties to Ableton.

Cheers, keep up the good work. :wink:
Rhino
I do agree, for me, not having Live 9 exactly on the release date or not didn't make a major difference, my music (if I get to a decent stage at all) hasn't drastically changed with Live 9, and it wouldn't have if there were even more changes. Live 8 already was a very mature product, so it's hard to have really groudbreaking changes. gear lust seems to be at play here for a lot of us.

But if you just glance through the topic list on the forum, most of the original postings are kind of genuine (bug reports, questions etc.).

<slightly off topic>

The one thing that I don't dig though is the whole marketing approach around Push. This is obviously the single biggest innovation with this release, and their comms around it sucks.

It does make a difference whether I can download Live 9 and the packs on 5th of march or one or two days later, or whether I am looking at a 4 month delay for a controller. Because I can get around not having Live 9 using alternative approaches in Live8, but I can't get around not having Push (if mouseless production is my goal).

I do understand some of the reasoning behind it, i.e. cash flow, small company etc. But then don't sell it with unrealistic promises. In any case, Ableton always knew that the first batch wouldn't be sent out straight away but end of march. So don't say "Available Now".

And changing a confirmed date (2-4 weeks) to 12-16 weeks as some users have reported, is ridiculous.

</slightly off topic>

Overall, it's all good.

kitekrazy
Posts: 739
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 7:16 pm

Re: Happy with Live 9?

Post by kitekrazy » Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:21 am

Ableton is unique amd I have two licenses but in reality it's an over priced DAW.

pulsoc
Posts: 2838
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 7:57 pm
Location: Baltimore
Contact:

Re: Happy with Live 9?

Post by pulsoc » Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:41 am

JuanSOLO wrote: Traktor's midi editing is still lightyears beyond Ableton Live.
Just getting into Traktor, it has midi editing? Where?

pencilrocket
Posts: 1718
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:46 am

Re: Happy with Live 9?

Post by pencilrocket » Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:54 am

Why don't OP try to look on the bright side rather than continuing reading nagging? There are plenty of good review. I'm sure you knew software always has more bugs in earlier version. Then it is quite natural for customer to frustrate, it may also depends on how it is advertised, the price they paid, customer service and so on. If customer pay much customer expectation will be relatively high. I don't know why you are concerned about the negative feedback so seriously. That's not your job. Take it easy.
I wish people would take advantage of the LIVE 9 DEMO first before buying. It really should solve whether they like it or not.
Yes, it will effectively avoid unhappy customer.
Just getting into Traktor, it has midi editing? Where?
I think he means MIDI mapping.
Last edited by pencilrocket on Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
Image

JuanSOLO
Posts: 3236
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2007 8:21 am
Location: Shreveport LA, sometimes Dallas/Ft Worth TX

Re: Happy with Live 9?

Post by JuanSOLO » Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:11 am

pulsoc wrote:
JuanSOLO wrote: Traktor's midi editing is still lightyears beyond Ableton Live.
Just getting into Traktor, it has midi editing? Where?
In the preferences, Controller Manager.
It does SO much, and once you understand it, it's very easy to do complex things.

JuanSOLO
Posts: 3236
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2007 8:21 am
Location: Shreveport LA, sometimes Dallas/Ft Worth TX

Re: Happy with Live 9?

Post by JuanSOLO » Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:13 am

@monohusch

If mouseless production is someone's goal, PUSH is not the only answer.
It's not the controller alone that makes it special.
It's the remote scripting that accesses the API.
The API which can be accessed through remote scripting OR max for live.
Sure the controllers velocity sesetive pads, labeled buttons, and touch encoders enable some tactile results other toys don't have, but ANY controller can perform all the API calls as long as the user knows python scripting or M4L.
So you can most definitely achieve a less mouse production without PUSH, thanks to the changes in the API.

Sure for most people they don't want to deal with API anything, and getting out of box results is worth $600.
M4L is still really misunderstood by many who think of it as coding python, it's not like that, but offers those results.
To me that makes Ableton Live 9 really cool, extreamly flexible.
However M4L or python IS no doubt steep learning curves that most "producing musicians" could care less to learn.

To me that's what makes Traktor's controller managing extreamly attractive.
It's not as tough to learn, you can get complex results, and its not trying to "appear" exclusive to a specific controller.

I somewhat agree that the PUSH marketing is wack.
It's deceiving.
And although I think remote scripting and M4L are awesome, it keeps Ableton in the controller biz big time by making it difficult to learn, but it makes them appear generously innovative at the same time.
I understand a business needs a money making strategy, I'm not against that.
Yet there's something about it that smells funny to me.

I would love to see Ableton incorporate something like a mini Bomes in the midi editing.
THEN promote the idea that anyone can use any controller because their software was so easy to hack with accompanying lessons etc. They should make it stupid clear that max for live is not really "coding"
For example, why not make a simple GUI editor that allows the user to make their own step sequencer control template that can work with various controllers.

To me they could just make the software totally bad ass, sell more of it, justifying the price of entry.
That is if they are serious about making computers a "Live" instrument.

monohusche
Posts: 190
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:28 pm
Location: Hongkong

Re: Happy with Live 9?

Post by monohusche » Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:42 am

JuanSOLO wrote:@monohusch

If mouseless production is someone's goal, PUSH is not the only answer.
It's not the controller alone that makes it special.
It's the remote scripting that accesses the API.
The API which can be accessed through remote scripting OR max for live.
Sure the controllers velocity sesetive pads, labeled buttons, and touch encoders enable some tactile results other toys don't have, but ANY controller can perform all the API calls as long as the user knows python scripting or M4L.
So you can most definitely achieve a less mouse production without PUSH, thanks to the changes in the API.

Sure for most people they don't want to deal with API anything, and getting out of box results is worth $600.
M4L is still really misunderstood by many who think of it as coding python, it's not like that, but offers those results.
To me that makes Ableton Live 9 really cool, extreamly flexible.
However M4L or python IS no doubt steep learning curves that most "producing musicians" could care less to learn.

To me that's what makes Traktor's controller managing extreamly attractive.
It's not as tough to learn, you can get complex results, and its not trying to "appear" exclusive to a specific controller.

I somewhat agree that the PUSH marketing is wack.
It's deceiving.
And although I think remote scripting and M4L are awesome, it keeps Ableton in the controller biz big time by making it difficult to learn, but it makes them appear generously innovative at the same time.
I understand a business needs a money making strategy, I'm not against that.
Yet there's something about it that smells funny to me.

I would love to see Ableton incorporate something like a mini Bomes in the midi editing.
THEN promote the idea that anyone can use any controller because their software was so easy to hack with accompanying lessons etc. They should make it stupid clear that max for live is not really "coding"
For example, why not make a simple GUI editor that allows the user to make their own step sequencer control template that can work with various controllers.

To me they could just make the software totally bad ass, sell more of it, justifying the price of entry.
That is if they are serious about making computers a "Live" instrument.
Juan,

of course, it's not just the controller but the API itself and the way it integrates.

I used to spend the majority of my time (coming from pure Max) implementing devices and a control suite for Ableton with my monome (i.e. MonoLive, MonoMidi, MonoParaSteppa, dschihadelay). Until I realised that all this tool development is actually compromising the time I spent making music.

The complexity is not in making API calls but in allocating buttons and actions in such a way that it results in a smooth workflow which also covers the main performance aspects. Reimplementing what Push does with a different controller will definitely result in significant effort and sub optimal return compared to using Push as a baseline and adding bits and pieces via M4L taking over controls or using the user mode.

Additionally, it will enable other Push Users to benefit from custom M4L extensions which will inevitably pop up, more than complete M4L "mappings" for monome, for instance.

And as you said, most of the Ableton users don't deal with programming, so they will buy a controller which includes the mapping logic.

monohusche
Posts: 190
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:28 pm
Location: Hongkong

Re: Happy with Live 9?

Post by monohusche » Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:07 am

@JuanSOLO

just one more comment.

Max for Live IS coding !

I mean, you are doing M4L, so you know. I would even say that despite the fact that M4L provides a higher abstraction level than general purpose languages (i.e. python) due to its visual programming caoabilities and its focus on Audio, Video and signal processing, the fact that it is event driven, asynchronous, parallel and data-flow driven creates quite a big hurdle for people who are more used to procedural languages (even though JavaScript can be embedded). The whole signal domain and the related aspects doesn't help either.

In essence, for just writing controller stuff, M4L is actually not adding much value other than the integration of the programming environment into Live. Where it really shines is the MSP and Jitter side of things as signal and video processing extensions can't be covered with python or so.

Introduction of "Mini Bomes" etc. wouldn't make M4L programming as such easier or more accessible to a wider user group but rather add an additional layer on top of M4L which would be easier to consume but also more restrictive, so horses for courses. Coders use M4L (steeper learning curve, more flexibility), Producers use Controller Editor, Mini Bomes etc. for configuration.

I think, to implement an "open source" version of Push using monome's, APC's or Launchpads, "Mini Bomes" would not suffice, but you rather need a proper language layer (such as M4L). One reason is the contextual layer. A lot of the Push mapping (i.e. what actions are triggered) depends on the "state" of the respective application object. I.e. adding a drumrack to a midi track results in a different mapping than adding an instrument. would be hard with a simple mapping as this wouldn't be unteractive. Another example is the fact that quick button presses (e.g. NoteRepeat) result in latch mode, so the time difference between "on" and "off" is taken into consideration. Just imagine how complex the Traktor Editor would become if you add the time dimension to it.

I might be wrong though as I don't know too much about Traktor or Controller Editor.

JuanSOLO
Posts: 3236
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2007 8:21 am
Location: Shreveport LA, sometimes Dallas/Ft Worth TX

Re: Happy with Live 9?

Post by JuanSOLO » Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:15 am

Maybe i misunderstood a part of your post, it seemed as if you were saying PUSH was the end all of mouseless production. Which made me think you didn't know any under the hood stuff.

So I apologize if my post seemed patronizing.

I agree all of this deep API accessing the Ableton way distracts from the primary purpose, whch is making the music. I definitely fell into a max hole for about 3 years. Still recovering.

Which enforces my point. There are "programmers" who get off on making tools, then there are the people that use them, much like my job as an animator.
Which leads me to believe Ableton went weird somewhere.
You have guys like Stray at NativeKoktrol who seem to have the vision somewhere in between programmer and performer. Yet he seems to be a one man show.
I'm not sure why Ableton who has the resources to hire 5-10 Stays, don't reflect that in their software with an Ableton supported MapEase on steroids for all controllers on the market.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not pointing a finger at Ableton specifically, I realize that with success come a whole new challenge when trying to maintain the forward thinking that got anyone success I the first place.

JuanSOLO
Posts: 3236
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2007 8:21 am
Location: Shreveport LA, sometimes Dallas/Ft Worth TX

Re: Happy with Live 9?

Post by JuanSOLO » Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:31 am

I guess Traktor's way is more or less that softwares answer to Abletons racks mapping, but in the form of midi preferences, you have modifiers (like rules) and lots of value settings which make me describe it as "mini Bomes"

It's not perfect by any means, and you couldn't build a step sequencer with it, nevertheless it's got much more going on than any software I have seen utilizing "midi map" or "learn"
It's not the end all, but I would hope Ableton would get just as inspired by Traktor, as Traktor has been by Ableton, because there are some killer workflow ideas happening there.
Ideas that may be written off because it's DJ software, As a part time DJ and a fan of DJ's I have to add, most DJ's I know still consider more than 1 effect send, 'really complex' routing.

Post Reply