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 Post subject: Re: Should I use 44.1kHz or 88.2kHz sampling rate?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:05 am 

Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:46 pm
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Pfft, X-Type here.

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 Post subject: Re: Should I use 44.1kHz or 88.2kHz sampling rate?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:32 am 

Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:00 am
Posts: 70
miekwave wrote:
Interesting point OP brought up.

I mentioned about high SR on another forum post.

Basically, if you have a capable system, by all means record at the highest SR possible - HOWEVER, for best results you should

a) down-sample your consolidated tracks to the fidelity of the lowest SR quality of any time based plug in (delays and reverbs) you have in your session. This is because processing super fidelity on reverbs or delays can produce noticeably unpleasant audio fidelity artifacts (but sometimes cool sounding depending on the type of music)
OR
b) Insert a Low Pass Filter at about 18khz/24dbo on each track that is sending to a reverb or delay based VST. This method does not require you to reconsolidate and resample your tracks, but you will need a very HQ Low Pass filter. Inserting LPF before the super fidelity signal is sent into a reverb or delay will greatly reduce nay super fidelity artifacts.

For your super fidelity recordings or session track, DO NOT DITHER. Dithering super fidelity tracks essentially "scrambles" super frequencies that occur about or below the noise floor or your mastered recording - but you don't want to do this yet, I have my reasons but basically, its better to AVOID using dithering until you are processing your final version.

Recording at 88k is fine, however you should strongly consider making a "Master" version of your track and a "Internet Ready Version". Your Internet ready version should be downsampled to 44.1/16bit with POW-r (or equivilant) dithering. The file version you want to convert into MP3 is the "Internet Ready Version", ther is 0 benefit to converting a 88k file to MP3. When converting a super fidelity recorded file into MP3, be aware that supersonic frequencies will distort in the audible range on your MP3 rendering (depending on how good your MP3 conversion program is.)

Also professional monitor systems use components designed to reproduce a 20-20 linear response curve on biamp/triamp or single amp enclosures. As such, the transistors inside these components are not designed to reproduce frequencies above 20khz or so. Supersonic frequencies hovering at or above the noise floor being sent through these systems usually distort the tweeter component, and it is quite noticeable. This is why most professional monitors have a built in crossover with a low pass filter at 18-22khz.

So whats the moral of the story?
Record as high as you want, but be sure to apply LOW PASS FILTERS, Reconsolidate as appropriate, and convert different versions of your master "Internet version" and "Your Version" before converting to mp3 or any internet ready format.


Thanks for the reply, will keep all of that in mind, even though I think all my time based stuff can go 88.2 :D. And my "internet ready file" will be FLAC, I don't like lossy audio.

@Tone Deft yea i've got hi-q set to default already.

@Tarekith I actually made a post like this on gearslutz and got a ton of replies, so that's funny but some people actually like to learn and explore ideas rather than being sheep (no offense). Also many people would also argue that dither does matter, I don't agree with that since it's supposed to be inaudible but it's definitely true that shaped dither is better than flat dither. I imagine that dither is also audible more at 16 than 24 due to the lowered dynamic range, but I'm not sure on that.


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 Post subject: Re: Should I use 44.1kHz or 88.2kHz sampling rate?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:39 am 

Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:52 am
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,


Last edited by krizgainz on Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Should I use 44.1kHz or 88.2kHz sampling rate?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:55 am 

Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:46 pm
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Location: Ableton Forum Administrator
There's nothing wrong with learning about all of this, I spent years doing the same. But at a certain point you begin to realize the significance of it all, or rather, how insignificant some of this stuff is to the final end product. People spend hours and hours debating things that have less than 1% impact on the way things will sound at the end of the day. Even if it's 5%, there's still so many things vastly more important to making a great sounding recording that people just sort of gloss over.

That's not to say that people shouldn't strive to achieve the best recordings that they can, just that past a certain point you're chasing a goal merely for the sake of saying you achieved that goal, not because it really made much difference to the art you create or how it's presented.

Higher sample-rates definitely can make a tiny difference in how some recordings sound, but there are so many steps in the process from recording to playback to making sure that the end listener hears that difference, that I think in most cases it's just not worth worrying about. With top end mics, in a really great sounding room, with high end ADC's, and with performers who are extremely dynamic, and where the end medium is also a highr sample-rate, yes sometimes higher SRs can add something 44.1 doesn't. But how much of this applies to your average electronic muso?

There's a point where you need to step back from the theory of "how it should be", and just be more realistic about how it WILL be to achive the best results.

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 Post subject: Re: Should I use 44.1kHz or 88.2kHz sampling rate?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:03 pm 

Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:49 pm
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Location: Austin, TX
Also Andreilge,

I do not know if you do this or not, but you can also get interesting results by "de-digitising" your master.

Some methods I like to use is

1) Cassette De-Digitizing
If you have an "infinite" cassette or a normal casette + cassette recorder (RCA and Sony made some of the he best Cassette recorders circa. 1990s). What you need for this method are two pairs of RCA cables. One going in, one going out. Re record the cassette mix as a new "Cassette Master track into 44.1 16-bit. Results work best on "soundtracky" kind of stuff and especially for old school hip hop and vintage rock sound. Processing through most cassette will increase your noisefloor to about -60 to -70db, if you have a high energy mix, this is negatable since its a 'good' kind of noise (depending on your type of production.


2) Tube De-Digitizing
I also process most of my mixes through a TUBE ULTRAGAIN T1953 before final mixdown with WARM settings at about 3 O'clock position or so. It adds warmth to the mix, especially to dynamic/low velocity/build up parts of a track. This also takes some edge of an otherwise cold digital recording.

Doing this, allows you to render super fidelity recordings without having to take extra steps adding "digital" filters.

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 Post subject: Re: Should I use 44.1kHz or 88.2kHz sampling rate?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:48 am 

Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:00 am
Posts: 70
miekwave wrote:
Also Andreilge,

I do not know if you do this or not, but you can also get interesting results by "de-digitising" your master.

Some methods I like to use is

1) Cassette De-Digitizing
If you have an "infinite" cassette or a normal casette + cassette recorder (RCA and Sony made some of the he best Cassette recorders circa. 1990s). What you need for this method are two pairs of RCA cables. One going in, one going out. Re record the cassette mix as a new "Cassette Master track into 44.1 16-bit. Results work best on "soundtracky" kind of stuff and especially for old school hip hop and vintage rock sound. Processing through most cassette will increase your noisefloor to about -60 to -70db, if you have a high energy mix, this is negatable since its a 'good' kind of noise (depending on your type of production.


2) Tube De-Digitizing
I also process most of my mixes through a TUBE ULTRAGAIN T1953 before final mixdown with WARM settings at about 3 O'clock position or so. It adds warmth to the mix, especially to dynamic/low velocity/build up parts of a track. This also takes some edge of an otherwise cold digital recording.

Doing this, allows you to render super fidelity recordings without having to take extra steps adding "digital" filters.


did you just recommend using cassette for super fidelity lol? Not to mention 16 bit @ 44.1 is kind've the opposite of what this thread is steering towards, but thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Should I use 44.1kHz or 88.2kHz sampling rate?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:06 am 

Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:49 pm
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Location: Austin, TX
Andreilg3 wrote:
did you just recommend using cassette for super fidelity lol? Not to mention 16 bit @ 44.1 is kind've the opposite of what this thread is steering towards, but thanks.


Yes, I am mad- er- actually I did just recommend cassette for super fidelity. Your channels are still 88K, but the end bounce product would end up being 44.1 (as a cassette Master Version). Of course you can try doing the cassette mix as a 88k bounce for interesting results. Having a de-digitized master might come handy one day... Edit, in fact I will upload a track to my soundcloud using this technique (96k -> de-digitized (with tubes) -> 44.1k). (maybe tomorrow, i need to get some ZZZ's)

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 Post subject: Re: Should I use 44.1kHz or 88.2kHz sampling rate?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:22 am 

Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:10 pm
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a tape cassette has about 10dB dynamic range...
just saying...
tape saturation is a nice effect especially on the hi-freqs...but I wouldn't go there for mastering...

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 Post subject: Re: Should I use 44.1kHz or 88.2kHz sampling rate?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:05 am 

Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:50 am
Posts: 3638
miekwave wrote:
Yes, I am mad- er- actually I did just recommend cassette for super fidelity. Your channels are still 88K, but the end bounce product would end up being 44.1 (as a cassette Master Version). Of course you can try doing the cassette mix as a 88k bounce for interesting results. Having a de-digitized master might come handy one day... Edit, in fact I will upload a track to my soundcloud using this technique (96k -> de-digitized (with tubes) -> 44.1k). (maybe tomorrow, i need to get some ZZZ's)


come on.

so what converters are you using to go between your DAW and the cassette deck and/or Behringer Tube Ultragain???


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 Post subject: Re: Should I use 44.1kHz or 88.2kHz sampling rate?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:48 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm
Posts: 23565
Location: SF, CA
fishmonkey wrote:
miekwave wrote:
Yes, I am mad- er- actually I did just recommend cassette for super fidelity. Your channels are still 88K, but the end bounce product would end up being 44.1 (as a cassette Master Version). Of course you can try doing the cassette mix as a 88k bounce for interesting results. Having a de-digitized master might come handy one day... Edit, in fact I will upload a track to my soundcloud using this technique (96k -> de-digitized (with tubes) -> 44.1k). (maybe tomorrow, i need to get some ZZZ's)


come on.

so what converters are you using to go between your DAW and the cassette deck and/or Behringer Tube Ultragain???

probably Monster or Bose.

just joking miek.

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 Post subject: Re: Should I use 44.1kHz or 88.2kHz sampling rate?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:36 pm 

Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:49 pm
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Ok folks, here is my De-digitized mix

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 Post subject: Re: Should I use 44.1kHz or 88.2kHz sampling rate?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:02 am 

Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm
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thanks for posting. cool track. as much as I'd hate to look a gift horse in the mouth, a pre and post sample would be cool. unfortunately Soundcloud itself doesn't sound that good. I do respect your enthusiasm. I might drag out a cassette recorder and try it.

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oddstep wrote:
I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"


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 Post subject: Re: Should I use 44.1kHz or 88.2kHz sampling rate?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:19 am 

Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:49 pm
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Location: Austin, TX
Tone Deft wrote:
thanks for posting. cool track. as much as I'd hate to look a gift horse in the mouth, a pre and post sample would be cool. unfortunately Soundcloud itself doesn't sound that good. I do respect your enthusiasm. I might drag out a cassette recorder and try it.


Thanks, I should have noted that the drums and instrument tracks were bounced with different gain settings, the vocal track was recorded dry through tubes.

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 Post subject: Re: Should I use 44.1kHz or 88.2kHz sampling rate?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:26 am 

Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:50 am
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it's meaningless without an A/B comparison...


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 Post subject: Re: Should I use 44.1kHz or 88.2kHz sampling rate?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:44 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:54 pm
Posts: 527
i wish i could find it now... in the long PDC thread, andy/cytomic posted (or maybe someone else cross-posted from another forum) about tradeoffs between oversampling & sampling rates.

in short, as some people have said, a good number of plugins can benefit from higher processing sample rates, mostly because they generate frequencies past nyquist that will alias during processing, so more headroom there reduces aliasing and/or moves it out of the audible range. some plugins don't support oversampling, and many that do use an algorithm that has '0 latency' but actually introduces phase shift that causes varying latency per frequency. a few support oversampling with a more linear approach with higher (but still small) latency.

so, for processing only, when running at a higher rate, you can run just oversampling on the plugins that need it, and you will save CPU and reduce disk space by not recording at (unnecessary) higher rates, and not oversample plugins that don't need it, at a cost of a small amount of extra latency and some phase shift every time you go through an oversampler (which could accumulate if you've got several plugins using this method). or, you can run the whole project at a higher sampling rate, which avoids the need to oversample and therefore avoids the phase shifting and/or extra latency, but costs more cpu and disk space. iirc andy said he prefers running the higher rate as opposed to oversampling most of the time.

i definitely can notice the difference between some plugins that don't natively support oversampling like pod farm when running 44.1 vs. 88.2, but i haven't tried oversampling them yet (using something like metaplugin) to see the difference between the two oversampling methods.


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