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Why I think Lives Groove quantise is wrong (again)

Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:47 am
by mr.ergonomics
I made many attempts and ask why the groove quantise in Live works like it does. It works different than in most other DAWs and I never got an answer that really explained the behaviour.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=131073&hilit=groove

What Live does:
Live does not only quantise the note start, it does automatically quantise the note end too. That changes the note length.
Other DAWS quantise only the note start and the end only optional.



The problem:
That length change may be wanted on some cases, but in many cases I just want to align the note start. And the note length change can be quite big.

- MPC style sample playing problem: Changing the note length results in a longer played sample and therefore in a different release from the sample (a silly example - a voice sample is not " oh I love live9" anymore, but "oh I love live9 and", because the sample is played longer).

- Bass line problem: I also had cases where the adjustment from the note length from a played bass line just don't sound right due to the change from the note length. I did just want to (micro) align the note start perfectly with another instrument/drum track.

Pictures...:
I can explain exactly what's wrong now. Cubase is one DAW that does the basic things right here imho.

- It just moves the whole notes to the groove position (see 2)
- But you can quantise the note end too (see 3).
- That seems to be exactly the default behaviour from Live (see 4), but you can't archive 2 with Live.

Image

When you look at this SOS article at the end (picture below Final Thoughts), you will see that the do exactly what I did in 2.
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul12/a ... e-0712.htm

I would really like more control over the groove. This is a wish I have since Groove was introduced in Live8.

The possibilities I wish:
- quantise "note start" and move the "note end" the same amount. in a nut shell: just move the whole note like in 2
- an option to quantise the "note end" too (like the current implementation in Live, like in 3/4
- maybe also a only "note end" quantise function (see below). In Studio one you can also have a seperate value (0-100%) for that.

Image

Also really nice to have:
- a grid that shows the Groove (like in the first picture, look at the Groove and the grid , Cubase does this)
- when you change the quantise amount, the note should be moved also visually in real-time according to the current Groove amount (Cubase and many other DAWs does it)

- there are more interesting options in Reaper or other DAWs, like a "note length" parameter etc. - but the first three are options are probably the most important ones.

Re: Why I think Lives Groove quantise is wrong (again)

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 10:29 am
by mr.ergonomics
*advert*

Re: Why I think Lives Groove quantise is wrong (again)

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:17 am
by Coupe70
very well explained.
you should send a request to ableton support including a link to this thread !

Re: Why I think Lives Groove quantise is wrong (again)

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:33 am
by prprprpr
That's cool! I hope ableton developers will see this. There is so much room to to grow making better software. I wish those guys would focus to improve old features rather than creating new.

Re: Why I think Lives Groove quantise is wrong (again)

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 5:55 pm
by tintala
have noticed this myself and creates more work than necessary by having to drag the notes back again to their lengths... alot of clicks there!

Re: Why I think Lives Groove quantise is wrong (again)

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:10 am
by bradelectro
I think choosing a groove template from a dropdown menu feels too much like working in an Excel spreadsheet or something. I'd rather have a knob that I can turn like in Reason. But not to divert too far from OP's point- note lengths should not be changed.

Re: Why I think Lives Groove quantise is wrong (again)

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:38 am
by v00d00ppl
Yes note lengths should not change. I always noticed that when I work on an MPC or Arturia spark I get the last note in just right. With live I have to adjust my playing on the very last note. It is not a showstopper when at home. On stage you have to recover the extended note length by diverting in another loop or sound and then adjusting with your touchpad. Please send your findings to the live developers.

Re: Why I think Lives Groove quantise is wrong (again)

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:58 am
by arafel
+1000 OP!

Thank you for the clear examples.

These options (quantize end by %, etc) are basic midi functionality.

Re: Why I think Lives Groove quantise is wrong (again)

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:20 am
by mr.ergonomics
v00d00ppl wrote:Yes note lengths should not change. I always noticed that when I work on an MPC or Arturia spark I get the last note in just right. With live I have to adjust my playing on the very last note. It is not a showstopper when at home. On stage you have to recover the extended note length by diverting in another loop or sound and then adjusting with your touchpad. Please send your findings to the live developers.
>>I always noticed that when I work on an MPC or Arturia spark I get the last note in just right.With live I have to adjust my playing on the very last note.

hey v00d00ppl, can you explain that a bit more detailed? I don't get it but I'm very interested in your use case/problem.

Re: Why I think Lives Groove quantise is wrong (again)

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:12 pm
by v00d00ppl
mr.ergonomics wrote:
v00d00ppl wrote:Yes note lengths should not change. I always noticed that when I work on an MPC or Arturia spark I get the last note in just right. With live I have to adjust my playing on the very last note. It is not a showstopper when at home. On stage you have to recover the extended note length by diverting in another loop or sound and then adjusting with your touchpad. Please send your findings to the live developers.
>>I always noticed that when I work on an MPC or Arturia spark I get the last note in just right.With live I have to adjust my playing on the very last note.

hey v00d00ppl, can you explain that a bit more detailed? I don't get it but I'm very interested in your use case/problem.

On an MPC2000XL , MPC1000, MPC60, etc. The last note at the end of a 2 bar loop falls right into place. If the note has a longer sustain it will carry over to the beginning of the loop but you can still count off to two bars in your head and adjust how you execute the last note in your head. This is at 1/16 resolution.

On an Arturia Spark I set my steps to 32 steps @ 1/16 resolution. If I am step sequencing if the last note is played too long it will play in place also at the beginning of a 32 bar sequence. When I am manually tapping the pads on the spark landing right at the end of a 32 step sequence will also play the beginning correctly.

Using both style of devices I only need to think about my timing on the last note to determine if I want that sample played at the begining of the loop too.

With live 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 I have always had to shift the last note played back just by a nudge. Then I can isolate the two bars I want in my loop.

Usually I am only writing 1-2 bars at a time to build ideas.

let me know if that helps you understand.

Can any push players chime in if the sequencing on push compensates for this last note issue?

Re: Why I think Lives Groove quantise is wrong (again)

Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 11:32 am
by bakku
prprprpr wrote:That's cool! I hope ableton developers will see this. There is so much room to to grow making better software. I wish those guys would focus to improve old features rather than creating new.
any good news?

Re: Why I think Lives Groove quantise is wrong (again)

Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 11:42 am
by mr.ergonomics
I wrote to the support and got a short reply that that they have read it, but can't comment or promises anything.

ps: v00d00ppl, sorry for the late reply. I guess I got it, thanks.

Re: Why I think Lives Groove quantise is wrong (again)

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:43 am
by ansolas

Re: Why I think Lives Groove quantise is wrong (again)

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:27 pm
by jlgrimes
mr.ergonomics wrote: Also really nice to have:
- a grid that shows the Groove (like in the first picture, look at the Groove and the grid , Cubase does this)
- when you change the quantise amount, the note should be moved also visually in real-time according to the current Groove amount (Cubase and many other DAWs does it)



I believe Logic does this as well. It is one of the few things I like about its sequencer.

Re: Why I think Lives Groove quantise is wrong (again)

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:28 pm
by HorusProject
Wait a minute.

Can't you change the quantise settings (cmd+shift+u / ctl+shift+u)?