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 Post subject: More problems in live 8 -> live 9 migration
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:37 am 

Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:10 am
Posts: 113
Hi guys...sadly i have even more weird problems..

So here is a case:

I opened project in live 9 and noticed that it isn't sounding like it sounded in live 8. Of course at first i was thinking that i am imagining this and that it's not possible however i opened it in Live 8 and difference was dramatic.

Ok so i exported whole mix from live8, then opened in live 9, then exported - then opened clean template in live 9, imported both mixes (warp off) and i listened and A-B them..Well...they are VERY different sounding...Mix from live 9 is not loud, as in live 8.

At first i was thinking that maybe it's some 3rd party plugin behaving differently or maybe it is some max4live device which is incompatible but sadly it is not!!

I deleted all of my instruments from project and i leaved only kick channel. That kick channel does not contain any 3rd party FX, only ableton effects. Chain of effects actually. So i exported few bars of kick only from live 8 then same opened and exported in live 9 and difference is around 1db. Well i already see rolling eyes asking me what i am making noise about 1-db well it's not the point in 1-db. This is pretty much cumulative effect across whole mix. If you use dynamic plugins difference is dramatic. There is something wrong going on in live 9 which is making my mixes sounding different.


I am kinda sick of it all at the moment. I ordered live 9 only to discover that every second project is differently sounding then in live 8.

Of course i would be more then happy to realize that i am doing something wrong. Is there any option or do i have to recheck something which i dramatically missed from live 8 version??

Here is a shot (1,8mb) file so you can hear it for yourself...first few bars of live 8 kick then same project opened and exported from live 9 then again 8 then 9..you'll hear very obvious difference and yes there is no any other FX other then live 9..

http://www.sendspace.com/file/94trbc


Last edited by maky355 on Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: More problems in live 8 -> live 9 migration
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:47 am 

Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:50 pm
Posts: 11636
Location: MacAbleton Towers, sunny Manchester.
What chain of effects is on the kick? There are some effects that have changed a bit. I've not noticed any overall sound difference myself though.

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 Post subject: Re: More problems in live 8 -> live 9 migration
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:52 am 

Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:10 am
Posts: 113
Funk N. Furter wrote:
What chain of effects is on the kick? There are some effects that have changed a bit. I've not noticed any overall sound difference myself though.


Hi! I just posted audio file.

There is "Analog warmth" chain preset from live 8, erosion, EQ etc..

Yes i am aware that effect changed but they only added new functionality. Why change in sound?

As i said i would not whine about it but by using them across many instruments my mixes changed. It is dramatic cumulative effect really..Am i really supposed to go through all ox my project library and to re check each and every channel in many mixes to get the same sound? That seems insane.. :|


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 Post subject: Re: More problems in live 8 -> live 9 migration
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:17 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:50 pm
Posts: 11636
Location: MacAbleton Towers, sunny Manchester.
It does sound mad, but this is the first time I've heard anyone say anything like this, and I was a regular on the beta forum from last October. I'm hoping there's a simple explanation. I think you need to take it up with Ableton support directly though and see what they say first.

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 Post subject: Re: More problems in live 8 -> live 9 migration
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:35 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:25 pm
Posts: 1220
Location: New Jersey, USA
Are you using EQ8? I think that's been changed fairly substantially.


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 Post subject: Re: More problems in live 8 -> live 9 migration
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:30 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:10 am
Posts: 113
Yes i use EQ8 in this example..But shouldn't it be backward compatible?? I wonder why it is so drastic result :cry:

I am very picky about these things..i wonder how noone noticed it. That's why i think maybe it is some option or something. Or if there is indeed so drastic change in EQ they should provide some chart on how do i get the same sound from it, i mean what parameters i need to adjust to get same sound in eq8..


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 Post subject: Re: More problems in live 8 -> live 9 migration
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:17 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:50 pm
Posts: 11636
Location: MacAbleton Towers, sunny Manchester.
hmm this is interesting. I suggest you do an A/B with EQ 8 turned off or something and see if it could be that. How about export from Live 8 with EQ8 off vs export from Live 9 with EQ off. If they are the same then it's the EQ8 settings. I realise the sound will be all over the show, maybe try it just on one track.

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 Post subject: Re: More problems in live 8 -> live 9 migration
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:53 pm 

Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 2:47 pm
Posts: 337
Why not just finish the projects you started in 8 there, and start new projects in 9?

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 Post subject: Re: More problems in live 8 -> live 9 migration
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:05 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:10 am
Posts: 113
Matt_Quinn wrote:
Why not just finish the projects you started in 8 there, and start new projects in 9?

It's not solution not even an option for me. Believe me if it was up to that i wouldn't ask you guys here.. I work on different places with different computers. And because of my work i change computers more often then on regular basis. Not an option. I can't waste time on countless installations of two different suites beside that i also i want to use new tools to improve mixes.

Projects should be compatible. Noone ever mentioned that incompatibility. I wold really decide against upgrade if i knew that there is such difference between internal Ableton plugins...


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 Post subject: Re: More problems in live 8 -> live 9 migration
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:07 pm 

Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 6:17 am
Posts: 1061
Location: Jamaica, Queens
I posted about this during beta testing (multiple times)... None of my Live 8 songs sounded the same in Live 9 as in live 8, I even had multiple screen grabs to how the levels were different for each track within the same song. However, when I turned off every 'Compressor, EQ8, and Gate' the levels matched from 8 to 9... It's the new/updated FX devices that was causing the problem for me. Try turning off the updated devices in BOTH songs and see if the levels are matching. I can't test it anymore because I refuse to buy Live 9 until most of the bugs are gone.


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 Post subject: Re: More problems in live 8 -> live 9 migration
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:48 am 

Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:46 am
Posts: 1420
They followed the wrong way when they releaseed new plugin. They should have leave old plugin as it was, and add new plugin to maintain compatibility. This is common knowledge.

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 Post subject: Re: More problems in live 8 -> live 9 migration
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 6:42 am 

Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:10 am
Posts: 113
Willyum wrote:
I posted about this during beta testing (multiple times)... None of my Live 8 songs sounded the same in Live 9 as in live 8, I even had multiple screen grabs to how the levels were different for each track within the same song. However, when I turned off every 'Compressor, EQ8, and Gate' the levels matched from 8 to 9... It's the new/updated FX devices that was causing the problem for me. Try turning off the updated devices in BOTH songs and see if the levels are matching. I can't test it anymore because I refuse to buy Live 9 until most of the bugs are gone.


I can confirm this. When i disable Live effects levels are the SAME in both applications.

I know this will sound harsh and elitistic but it is not however i must say that: i am deeply SHOCKED that people did not report it before and that so small amount of people reported it. It generate question in me which is "do you people care and listen to your music?" but i am not trying to sound harsh, really. I am just shocked and VERY disappointed. Because these things are indeed trivial. I've never heard of anyone complaining that their very same tracks do sound different in different version of applications. Not once. Not for Reason, Cubase etc.etc.

analogy, imagine someone create something in Photoshop 5 and when opened in Photoshop 6 it does not looks the same. That can not be tolerated. Not with the leading industry application such as Ableton Live is.

So basically i've found only one person which noticed that his projects sound different. Difference is small albeit when soloed, but you know if you have ears it is not small. Considering that i use a lot of Live effects across mix my cumulative difference is HUGE not small. Add to that that on different volumes whole dynamic plugins in whole mixes ACT differently therefore my complete mixes sound entirely different. Someone will say similar i am saying different.

I want to report this in the best possible way and i demand some kind of chart from Ableton which i can follow
to get same sound in live 9.

I already reported several bugs to them, of which every is confirmed here with you people, however they never answered to me anything. Therefore i am asking what is best possible way?


EDIT: i narrowed problem down to Ableton Compressor. It is acting differently, producing different gain results when compared to live 8. Same project created in live 8, when i for example enable single same compressor in Live 9 it is giving me different gain reading then on Live 8 (with same settings on compressor). This is not good at least not for me, because i use that comp quite a lot (since it was good compressor anyway..)..

What a shame...I'll try to post more findings later..

Found another one Compressor Treshold is not translated between Live 8 vs Live 9. Wow, the most dramatic and most important component of a compressor is not translated correctly in upgraded version. Example in Live 8 it is set to -5.71db but when i open that same project in live 9 treshold is set to -3.91db 8O

If it is only up to this then i am all god but like i said i want chart from which i can align these settings...How noone ever noticed this..

edit: and another one...compressor is in rack preset (from default live 8 library). It is Analog Warmth preset. When i look at it it does look like macros are not translated not compressor settings (since compressor is tied and connected in macro anyway)...Which means that not just compressor settings aren't translated, likely it is quite a lot. Not good news for people which use rack presets..

When i enter values correctly in live 9, then readings are fine and it is same sounding..

I'll report it to Ableton with screenshots etc..

But it isn't just that. Saturator plugin loaded in Live 9 is giving me different results vs same settings on live 8. Not in macro, not in chain, different results...oh well...


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