Who is actually happy with the direction Ableton is going?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
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kryptonitejesus
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Who is actually happy with the direction Ableton is going?

Post by kryptonitejesus » Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:13 pm

Keep in mind this IS expensive software, does it actually feel like you've gotten proper value from it? (I don't want to hear from you pirating users who will give me glowing enthusiasm on how much you love it... after all, who DOESN'T love free stuff?)

I've been a user since the beginning of 8 and feel like I'm currently watching history repeat itself, but I'm just interested how you guys feel with the "improvements" and "changes" they've been incorporating into the workflow.

Personally I feel like there's been a major lack of attention paid to the major issues where it is needed the most, many major flaws were exposed during the lengthy beta testing for 9 and I honestly don't feel like anything was done about any of the issues addressed.

I feel like Abes has lost it's way and has haphazardly thrown together incomplete software in a quick-ditch attempt to coincide along with the OPTIONAL hardware release of Push which anyone who's super serious about arranging music will probably skip over.


Am I the only one who feels this way? I'm a bit jaded on the whole situation and have since bought Cubase 7 and haven't had any major issues whatsoever like some of the prevalent issues I'm constantly facing in 8/9.

I feel like Ableton is slowly becoming a child's toy with how watered down it's becoming.

Here's one of the major issues encountered on the forum that I don't feel has been given quite enough attention, unless I'm missing it. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qGJEvtP0bQ)

p.s. oh, and what's up with that nag dialogue asking you to take a survey? Isn't this supposed to be 1/2 performance software and 1/2 production software? That shit doesn't pop-up mid mix does it?

artpunk
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Re: Who is actually happy with the direction Ableton is going?

Post by artpunk » Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:20 am

What dialogue asking you to take a survey? I haven't encountered that. I received an email asking me to take a survey, but I think that was for the beta forums... (Scratches head)
Regarding your topic - personally I am happy with Live 9. As Ableton have been actively addressing issues (such as record arm automation workflow issues) as issues crop up, I think they are listening & trying to address & improve the software. Yes there are ongoing issues that don't seem to have been addressed, but not being privy to Abe's development team I can't comment on any underlying reasons there. Suffice to say I believe if they could fix all the perceived problems talked about, they would, providing 1. The problems were actually fixable & 2. By fixing them, that fix did not lead to other problems...
and of course it is impossible to please everybody!!
Just my 2c
Live a 'toy'? I really don't think so, not by any stretch of the imagination :D

(edited to fix spelling mistakes)
Last edited by artpunk on Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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eddiex
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Re: Who is actually happy with the direction Ableton is going?

Post by eddiex » Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:23 am

i feel like there is not much more they can really offer. i must admit, i have only scratched the surface of 9, but for my usage...it still functions as i expect it to...actually kind of better. things seem a little more snappy. i disagree with you about the "toy" comment. i think live is pretty powerful despite the cartoony look. as far as major issues....i've never really had any crazy issues. i seem to be able to use more plugs, without the CPUs going crazy, with this version. i like the m4l stuff, i like the new eq8, the glue and the new compressor views. i am not bitter about the browser.
i'm still digging live.
i did think the upgrade from suite8 to suite9 was a little pricy, especially considering the only difference between an upgrade from suite to suite and an upgrade from suite to standard is content.
i was also a little surprised at how quickly they jumped back into beta testing, i think i would have rather waited for it to be finished, instead of having to upgrade for bugs every week or so. i own reason, logic and a bunch of NI stuff. none of the other guys seem to do things this way.
i think the way they have handled the PUSH release has been a little wonky, to say the least.
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agent314
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Re: Who is actually happy with the direction Ableton is going?

Post by agent314 » Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:45 am

i was also a little surprised at how quickly they jumped back into beta testing, i think i would have rather waited for it to be finished, instead of having to upgrade for bugs every week or so
I'm glad to see them back in the beta phase again - shows that they're still working on things and adding/tweaking features in an ongoing way.

I would much rather have had Live 9 come out when it did than have to wait 2 months for them to fix minor issues.

cotdagoo
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Re: Who is actually happy with the direction Ableton is going?

Post by cotdagoo » Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:02 am

agent314 wrote:
i was also a little surprised at how quickly they jumped back into beta testing, i think i would have rather waited for it to be finished, instead of having to upgrade for bugs every week or so
I'm glad to see them back in the beta phase again - shows that they're still working on things and adding/tweaking features in an ongoing way.

I would much rather have had Live 9 come out when it did than have to wait 2 months for them to fix minor issues.
I'd say it shows more that a release was rushed. The fact that there was an update out with in 3 days of 9 being released tells me the tweaking/adding features is something that should be left to the beta process.

I can't imagine how many users were screwed when their 9.0.1 install was automatically updated to 9.0.2 on a Friday and subsequently wouldn't start after that.. More pointing towards something being rushed out the door.

I'd much rather the problems that popped up in the beta get addressed before the software is even considered to be released. It's like "yeah we know there's bugs, but we want to make money NOW.. we'll fix everything later.." - well same thing happened with Live 8, and it was at least a year of beta releases since 8.0.1 before things became stable.. deja vu?

fishmonkey
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Re: Who is actually happy with the direction Ableton is going?

Post by fishmonkey » Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:07 am

there will always be bugs in a complex software system, so beta's are always necessary for anything that is being actively developed.

Adrian Myers
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Re: Who is actually happy with the direction Ableton is going?

Post by Adrian Myers » Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:55 am

I'm relatively new to Live, but I've been using a sequencer or DAW since first getting Cakewalk 4.0 for DOS in 1990.

In terms of Ableton's direction, they single-handedly set a new standard. Live isn't a Cubase clone, and for what it is, it's the only show in town. Given that they charted a new course and haven't really strayed from it, at the high level, you have to give them quite a lot of credit.

As for value, that's entirely personal. For Live's core target user, it's really the only application of its kind. For everybody else, it's "just" an amazingly competent, versatile, hybrid program with a lot of good ideas. It's very hard to see how it wouldn't be considered good value. It is more expensive than obvious competitors, but it's still fairly priced for what it does (especially Suite, which is amazing in scope), so that shouldn't be a problem.

In terms of feature requests, bugs, complaints, and all of that... no DAW developer is famous for their responsiveness in a good way. Cockos was, but no more. Cakewalk has marched itself completely off the map. Steinberg customers are far angrier about far more long-term issues than Ableton customers are.

For myself, I held off on Live until the sale preceeding 9, and got it hoping to see what everybody was so excited about and to move away from Cubase. Unfortunately, due entirely to some profoundly awkward UI and workflow issues in Live's Arranger, I'll be moving to Cubase 7 soon anyway. Live and learn I suppose.

But even with that disappointment, I still think that Live is actually the most appealing overall package in the industry at the moment (maybe just for somebody else to actually use). If it were possible to get our minor issues addressed, then I suppose that would make it perfect for all of us. But that'd just be boring, right?
Last edited by Adrian Myers on Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

nemoy
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Re: Who is actually happy with the direction Ableton is going?

Post by nemoy » Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:56 am

The best thing about live is, that it just offers
an infrastructure. And Everyone out there uses it
in a different way.
But this means as soon as they change the way this
infrastructure works, there will be many people,
who cant use it any more, the way they usually do.
Or have to rethink their entire way of performing.
while others won't even notice anything has changed.

And i understand, that the abes can't possibly think
of every weird and nerdy way, people use ableton.

So whenever they change ANYTHING, there will be people
that aren't happy about it.

But on the other hand, there are some general issues,
that are ignored constantly... the entire driver
latency conpensation thing for example is a mess...
and has been since day one.

oddstep
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Re: Who is actually happy with the direction Ableton is going?

Post by oddstep » Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:17 am

I don't get a lot of value from their focus on presets and sample packs, I also don't enjoy the way they make hardware integration a commercial product, rather than it being a readily accessible feature. However, this was all underway with Live 8. So its hardly a recent development. On the other hand, I love the Live approach to signal paths and pattern based sequencing, I could probably make a decent performance rig in Usine or Max, but like the man says.. Live provides this really tight infrastructure.. which makes developing new projects really quick. Its not a toy in any meaningful sense.

ObtuseMoose
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Re: Who is actually happy with the direction Ableton is going?

Post by ObtuseMoose » Mon Apr 01, 2013 3:17 am

oddstep wrote:I also don't enjoy the way they make hardware integration a commercial product, rather than it being a readily accessible feature.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Are you talking about the fact that Max 4 Live is an extra cost option, or is it something about Push? Can you say more about what you'd like to see?

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Moose
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djadonis206
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Re: Who is actually happy with the direction Ableton is going?

Post by djadonis206 » Mon Apr 01, 2013 3:46 am

Life's pretty dope. I've been on it since 2003 and I really think they stepped up their game with 9. The new compressor and EQ are where it's at. And the Max audio LFO? Powerful!

There's no point for me to get in the weeds about Betas or releases. I just like to use Live to make beats.
Ableton | Elektron

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dazzer
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Re: Who is actually happy with the direction Ableton is going?

Post by dazzer » Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:58 am

n/m

oddstep
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Re: Who is actually happy with the direction Ableton is going?

Post by oddstep » Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:03 am

ObtuseMoose wrote:
oddstep wrote:I also don't enjoy the way they make hardware integration a commercial product, rather than it being a readily accessible feature.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Are you talking about the fact that Max 4 Live is an extra cost option, or is it something about Push? Can you say more about what you'd like to see?

--
Moose
What I mean is that starting with Live 8 and the APC new functions have been added to the remote control scripts... stuff like the clip launch box. This is even more marked with Push... a python step sequencer, scale grids etc. Now all this functionality could be documented and made available for us all through user configuration scripts.but that isn't what has happened. Instead new bits of hardware are introduced that act as dongles for these api calls. Eventually someone decompiles the remote scripts from their pyc encryption and then the more adept computer programmers get on with the task of hacking the object model. I say hacking because Ableton don't document it at all. Max for Live has objects to address remote scripts but there are very few official tutorials on their use. In this vacuum of information individuals like Stray step in. The whole reason that the NativeControl CLYPX family of products exists is because Ableton have decided not to enable their own customers... preferring instead to fund a microindustry of coders and looppack retailers. It doesn't have to be like this, ableton could just have carried on improving the user configuration text file system that they started with Live 6, or they could have provided Renoise style support for scripting. its a really mediocre commercial solution.

oddstep
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Re: Who is actually happy with the direction Ableton is going?

Post by oddstep » Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:55 pm

Fair enough, the exposing of the api via max is totally great and I do use it a lot. It isn't as easy as the userconfiguration texts though. My other gripe is with the obfuscation surrounding features like the session matrix, where a user has to buy some hardware or find the time to learn python and hunt down unofficial decompiles. Its a complete wind up.. big up to Julien Bayle for providing all of the recent scripts as .py files. But it shouldn't be like this. Shakes fist at uncaring empty sky. :D

ObtuseMoose
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Re: Who is actually happy with the direction Ableton is going?

Post by ObtuseMoose » Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:48 pm

oddstep wrote:What I mean is that starting with Live 8 and the APC new functions have been added to the remote control scripts [...] Now all this functionality could be documented and made available for us all through user configuration scripts.but that isn't what has happened. [...]
Ah, I see. Thanks for clarifying.

As a software developer currently working on a product that has an officially supported, publicly accessible API (that has nothing to do with music), I feel qualified to say that supporting and maintaining a public API is a royal PITA that goes beyond just providing documentation. To do it right, you have to be able to answer questions from people of vastly different levels of knowledge and skill (many of whom can't be bothered to actually read the documentation. Just look at some of the questions this forum gets 8O ) Plus it can hinder future development if you have to maintain backwards compatibility as you struggle to replace that system that seemed like such a good idea 5 years ago.

So unless it's a core part of your business or at least can provide a significant bump in sales or revenue, public APIs are something of a tar pit.

That said, I find it interesting (and refreshing) that Ableton seem to be turning a blind eye to the unofficial 3rd party decompiling and documenting of their remote interface, despite the fact that decompiling is explicitly prohibited by their license agreement. They probably know that there would be much more to lose than to gain if they started enforcing that license; they're essentially getting (some of) the benefits of a public API without the cost. Assuming that's an intentional move on their part (and not due to lack of funds to hire a lawyer :) ), I think it's pretty cool of them.

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Moose
"all the musical ability of a blocked nostril"

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