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 Post subject: Why can't master tempo be controlled by Max For Live device?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:03 pm 

Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:29 pm
Posts: 168
I have mapped "Master tempo" as the destination for the new LFO device in Live 9 (Max For Live device), but it's not working at all. Live seems to slow down to a halt, and even though the master tempo is sort of(!) changing according to the LFO, the master tempo is not reacting as I thought it would.

Why doesn't this work? Have also tried with another LFO Max For Live device, but with the same result.

Is "Master tempo" not made for this kind of live modulation?

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 Post subject: Re: Why can't master tempo be controlled by Max For Live device?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:15 pm 

Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:26 pm
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Location: Wageningen, Netherlands
I get the impression it works just as it should but the results simply aren't what you expected. For example; have you tried to change the global tempo manually during playback to see what happened?

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 Post subject: Re: Why can't master tempo be controlled by Max For Live device?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:49 pm 

Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:29 pm
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Changing manually works just fine - tempo is slowing up and down as I slide the tempo up and down with the mouse.

I would therefore expect the same kind of behaviour if I modulate the master tempo with a sine curve through the LFO Max For Live object, but this is not so.

So, no - this is not the behaviour one should expect.

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 Post subject: Re: Why can't master tempo be controlled by Max For Live device?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:59 pm 

Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 12:15 pm
Posts: 3473
digid wrote:
Changing manually works just fine - tempo is slowing up and down as I slide the tempo up and down with the mouse.

I would therefore expect the same kind of behaviour if I modulate the master tempo with a sine curve through the LFO Max For Live object, but this is not so.

So, no - this is not the behaviour one should expect.

is your lfo synced to tempo ?

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 Post subject: Re: Why can't master tempo be controlled by Max For Live device?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:02 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 10:55 pm
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Location: Boston, MA
does it behave the same for you if the LFO is synced to tempo versus not?

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 Post subject: Re: Why can't master tempo be controlled by Max For Live device?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:04 am 

Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:02 am
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Location: Menasha, Wisconsin
What is the Amount of LFO? At 100..... That'd be insane haha

Edit: but I may have to tinker with this idea to attempt Risset beats :P


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 Post subject: Re: Why can't master tempo be controlled by Max For Live device?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:48 am 

Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:26 pm
Posts: 3461
Location: Wageningen, Netherlands
Ok, I can reproduce; there is something going wrong with this critter.

AbleTen - Adam Freeland "Morning Sun".

Even though this liveset is mostly made up from sound samples (clips) I really like this one. The bass is kicking some serious ass IMO, and I also like the low / high end differences.

ok, ok.. enough ranting :-)

Just one "whine" though: Why doesn't Ableton keep the AbleTen series available in some archive or such? Honestly; the Covert Operators stuff is teh shit IMO (awesome stuff, even for learning)

OK... Back on topic.

As said I can reproduce.

I play Morning Sun and start messing with the BPM and get all sorts of nastyness.

When you play a song aimed at 133bpm at 30 or 336.....

Thing is; OP is correct. When I pull in the M4l LFO, connect it with global transport then nothing.. No change, no glitch just nothing.

While it should have.

Anyway; 'tis a bit too late for me to dive in. This could be a m4l issue, a patch issue (I'm tempted to blame the patch first; it wouldn't be the first time a flakey patch was released) or something completely different.

Either way; I'm diving in tomorrow evening.

But OP (original poster): It's not you, its confirmed. Something is amiss here.

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Using the Big Trio: Live 9 Suite, Max (for Live) and Reason 6.5.
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 Post subject: Re: Why can't master tempo be controlled by Max For Live device?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:02 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 10:55 pm
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Location: Boston, MA
If i open a blank live set, add a MIDI LFO device from the library to an empty MIDI track. Map it to global tempo, it works exactly as expected. Tempo following the sine wave. Seems to work here.

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 Post subject: Re: Why can't master tempo be controlled by Max For Live device?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:08 am 

Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:26 pm
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Location: Wageningen, Netherlands
synnack wrote:
If i open a blank live set, add a MIDI LFO device from the library to an empty MIDI track. Map it to global tempo, it works exactly as expected. Tempo following the sine wave. Seems to work here.

Same question then to you as the OP; how do you determine that it worked?

I also see the numbers changing. But as mentioned above; if I play Morning Sun then I see the BPM numbers rapidly changing up & down but apart from that nothing happens. NO difference in sound at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Why can't master tempo be controlled by Max For Live device?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:19 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 10:55 pm
Posts: 2044
Location: Boston, MA
Ah I see what you guys are saying now. You're right. No errors in the Max window either.

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 Post subject: Re: Why can't master tempo be controlled by Max For Live device?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 7:23 am 

Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:29 pm
Posts: 168
chapelier fou wrote:
digid wrote:
Changing manually works just fine - tempo is slowing up and down as I slide the tempo up and down with the mouse.

I would therefore expect the same kind of behaviour if I modulate the master tempo with a sine curve through the LFO Max For Live object, but this is not so.

So, no - this is not the behaviour one should expect.

is your lfo synced to tempo ?


Nope, it is running on its own clock ("Freq" is active, not sync), so that shouldn't be an issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Why can't master tempo be controlled by Max For Live device?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:59 pm 

Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:26 pm
Posts: 3461
Location: Wageningen, Netherlands
So a little bit later than I had planned but I'm very tempted to blame the patch, though there's one thing I might be trying to do but we'll see.

First I tried changing the tempo using a simple build m4l device and there's no problem there.

Then I took the device apart. The actual mapping takes place in MapButtonLFO.maxpat (external) where it checks for "live.path live_set view selected_parameter", with an extra check not to map to itself.

Thing is; it seems to be using a live.remote~ for the actual control. And that's where things seem to go wrong; live.remote~ normally does not like the tempo property, complaining that "component 'tempo' is not an object".

Now, obviously this does not explain why the value changes and nothing happens. I tried to reproduce the mapping procedure (click object & point live.path to 'live_set view selected_parameter') but although it does result in live.remote~ getting mapped to the tempo (which gets confirmed if I try to map the tempo again using the LFO device) it does not result in the same behaviour.

In fact; no matter what I send into the live.remote~ it doesn't change the tempo value at all.

So my hunch at this time is that its a limitation of the LFO device. It seems live.remote~ isn't the best approach to control all of Live's parameters, though to be completely sure I'd have to check this out with Live 8 as well; its also possible something changed in the API itself which then caused this behaviour.

But that's for later.

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 Post subject: Re: Why can't master tempo be controlled by Max For Live device?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:50 pm 

Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:29 pm
Posts: 168
This has now been confirmed as a bug by Ableton, so hopefully they'll get a fix out soon(ish).

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