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 Post subject: Where oh where do I put my snare?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:23 pm 

Joined: Sat May 02, 2009 7:26 pm
Posts: 143
For as long as I've been playing music, most 4/4 stuff, in my mind, has had snare hits on the 2 and 4 of the bar. When you discuss reggae and other "world" music, a lot of the times the snare is on the 3.

I get that.

BUT... lately I've been seeing a lot of electronic musicians putting their snares/claps on the 3 as well, but having a much faster tempo than what I would count it as. It's like they're almost counting in double-time but emphasizing the 3. I still hear it as a faster beat but with emphasis on the 2 and 4. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm not... maybe there is no true answer (probably the most accurate answer).

In your experiences, do you find there to be any right way as to where to put the snares/claps? Certainly there is no right way to do anything in music, I get it, I don't need that answer.. I guess what I'm curious about is to whether there is any advantage within a DAW such as Live when emphasizing the 3 at a faster tempo compared to slowing down the tempo and counting on the 2 and 4.

The drummer in my band counts a lot of 4/4 music with his snare hits on the 3, while I'm hearing them on the 2 and 4... so to each their own I suppose. I'd imagine it's based off of what the instrumentation is playing and when the chords change... ok now I'm just rambling. Any ideas are much appreciated, as always!


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 Post subject: Re: Where oh where do I put my snare?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:53 pm 

Joined: Fri May 18, 2012 4:40 pm
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Location: Syracuse, NY
I think that in any kind of 'dance' music in 4/4, you'll have a hard time getting around the emphasis of beats 2 and 4. I would almost always consider snare/clap hits on beat 3 to have a half-time feel. Thereby being pretty much the same framework. But there are a ton of interesting variations and syncopations that will spice it up. Like instead of putting a snare on beat 4, put it on the 'and' or 4. Or find ways to incorporate a half-time feel on top of the existing beat, so you have a complex ebb and flow of what beats are emphasized. You can also incorporate slower moving melodic parts on top of a fast beat, or vice versa. I think that's what you're talking about. It all drastically changes the feel of the music and can really solve problems if the creative process has encountered a road block (for me, at least). Play around a lot with where you place beat emphasis in your drums. Maybe use some element of swing (create groove patterns in Live). Maybe experiment with different velocities.

Hope this helps! Just stuff that works for me when I make music.

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 Post subject: Re: Where oh where do I put my snare?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:06 pm 

Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:31 pm
Posts: 2622
Location: The Lounge
you get it, there is quite no real rule, besides the GROOVE.

you can run a 280-4/4-kick based stuff with a groove in it, but this groove has to remain human compatible, so you need to step down major elements like the snare to help the groove to remain...

you can feel a slow groove on a speedcore or technical death metal track

but you can't do the opposite, because human groove isn't speed. (I think it has to do with the heart pulsation between 60 and 80, then if you multiply... 120 to 160... so you can play 280 speedcore with a 70 pbm groove pulsating inside and giving it a hell of a great musical touch ^^)

cheers

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 Post subject: Re: Where oh where do I put my snare?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:50 am 

Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:06 pm
Posts: 869
As a rule for what I do, I use little snares (blips and so forth) for the 2s and 4s, or big snares (usually with long, panning delays) for 3s or 4s w/o 2s. Sometimes I also like to place one big snare pretty much at any point past 3.

This has been a serious post.

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 Post subject: Re: Where oh where do I put my snare?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:09 pm 

Joined: Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:22 am
Posts: 1401
The snare is almost always on the two and four but what you are hearing in bass music and juke influenced stuff (like Machinedrum) is a mix of double time and half time beats that make it sound like it's on 3. But it doesn't really matter. You could program the rest of the beat in 32nd notes and the snare would rest on the 2 and 4 or program the kicks and hats in eighth notes and the snare would lay on 3. In drum and bass the 2nd snare in a bar sometimes on the beat halfway between 3 and 4. I always liked that. In some bass music and instrumental hip hop or glitch stuff the first snare is sometimes (rarely) put on the eighth note before the 2. I also really like this but it's going to throw off many people who aren't used to that kind of thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Where oh where do I put my snare?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:04 pm 

Joined: Sat May 02, 2009 7:26 pm
Posts: 143
Thanks for all the replies guys. Maybe I didn't make my original post clear enough. I DO understand snare syncopation and putting it off the beat to mix it up (someone said something about hip hop drums putting a snare on the first & of the bar). I get that.

What I'm talking about is more of how you count the bar. So, for example, we'll work in 4/4 since 99% of EDM and hip hop is in 4/4. Think of a basic kick drum, 4 on the floor beat. 1..2..3..4.. 1..2..3..4.. Now, the groove I'm talking about is technically called a backbeat. Emphasis on the 2 and 4. So your drums would look like this:

1...2...3...4...
K...K...K...K...
....S.......S...

That's how I normally count music in my head. MOST of the time the snares are on 2 and 4, unless it gets snazzy. BUT, what I've seen from time to time, whether it be in a youtube clip, or from downloading wav loops.. is that some producers are keeping that same groove, but maybe putting the bars in half-time and doubling the tempo. A single bar looks like this:

1...2...3...4...
K.......K.......
........S.......

But, it would sound the same as the first example. Is this making sense? So basically the steady pulsing of the kick drum from the first example woudl sound the EXACT SAME in the second example, but it would be stretched over two bars.

Why? Is there an advantage to this that I'm missing? Because I normally don't count half-time in my head when listening to tunes, but when looking at the construction behind the tunes, I see it's programmed like such.


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 Post subject: Re: Where oh where do I put my snare?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:39 am 

Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:23 am
Posts: 89
Location: everywhere
Below the toms. Next to and under the high hat. In front of the kick... :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Where oh where do I put my snare?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:59 am 

Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:31 pm
Posts: 2622
Location: The Lounge
I think Chrissobo and myself did answer to your question

if you use the 2nd version you get more space between your rythmic elements, then you can put way more stuff between the kicks when, e.g., working on a step sequencer.

that's related to tempo. the second version needs a 2x faster tempo to make the same groove as the first version.

cheers

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 Post subject: Re: Where oh where do I put my snare?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:02 am 

Joined: Fri May 27, 2011 8:52 am
Posts: 1574
Location: South London
4x4 plus clap on 3 has a marching feel

kick on 1 and snare on 3 is dubstep/two step and other half step rhythms - broadly speaking - you can run your tunes at 180 bpm and it sounds kind of chilled with this pattern

experiment

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 Post subject: Re: Where oh where do I put my snare?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:01 pm 

Joined: Sat May 02, 2009 7:26 pm
Posts: 143
Thanks all, now just a matter of making time to experiment in between work and a startup band.


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 Post subject: Re: Where oh where do I put my snare?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:09 pm 

Joined: Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:22 am
Posts: 1401
Make a stereotypical hip hop beat. Remove the snares. Place snare on the 3. Speed it up a bit 30-40 bpm. Future Bass.

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 Post subject: Re: Where oh where do I put my snare?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:13 am 

Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:52 am
Posts: 144
patrick.olson86 wrote:
Thanks for all the replies guys. Maybe I didn't make my original post clear enough. I DO understand snare syncopation and putting it off the beat to mix it up (someone said something about hip hop drums putting a snare on the first & of the bar). I get that.

What I'm talking about is more of how you count the bar. So, for example, we'll work in 4/4 since 99% of EDM and hip hop is in 4/4. Think of a basic kick drum, 4 on the floor beat. 1..2..3..4.. 1..2..3..4.. Now, the groove I'm talking about is technically called a backbeat. Emphasis on the 2 and 4. So your drums would look like this:

1...2...3...4...
K...K...K...K...
....S.......S...

That's how I normally count music in my head. MOST of the time the snares are on 2 and 4, unless it gets snazzy. BUT, what I've seen from time to time, whether it be in a youtube clip, or from downloading wav loops.. is that some producers are keeping that same groove, but maybe putting the bars in half-time and doubling the tempo. A single bar looks like this:

1...2...3...4...
K.......K.......
........S.......

But, it would sound the same as the first example. Is this making sense? So basically the steady pulsing of the kick drum from the first example woudl sound the EXACT SAME in the second example, but it would be stretched over two bars.

Why? Is there an advantage to this that I'm missing? Because I normally don't count half-time in my head when listening to tunes, but when looking at the construction behind the tunes, I see it's programmed like such.


There's a lot of flexibility in how you can count things because the time signature of a piece is determined by phrase length and emphasis within the melody as well as rhythmic elements. What's the difference between a half-time feel @ 160bpm and a regular back-beat @ 80bpm? On a grid, there isn't one. But remember, the grid in a DAW is an abstraction of musical ideas that have existed long before computers. What's the difference between 4/4, 2/2 and 2/4 time? Again, on a grid, none. But Mozart wrote a minuet in F in 2/2 time for a reason, and it sounds different from 4/4 time. In order to answer your question, you'd have to learn to play something like that minuet.

Here's a way to explore this: write a melody in 4/4 - no beat or chords, just melody. Now, try to write that in 2/2, then 2/4. Which notes will be strong and which notes weak? How can you justify that time signature?


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 Post subject: Re: Where oh where do I put my snare?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:19 pm 

Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:47 am
Posts: 119
Just listen to Dimmu Borgir, they know how to !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... LWk#t=254s

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 Post subject: Re: Where oh where do I put my snare?
PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 9:47 pm 

Joined: Fri May 27, 2011 8:52 am
Posts: 1574
Location: South London
3osc wrote:
patrick.olson86 wrote:
Thanks for all the replies guys. Maybe I didn't make my original post clear enough. I DO understand snare syncopation and putting it off the beat to mix it up (someone said something about hip hop drums putting a snare on the first & of the bar). I get that.

What I'm talking about is more of how you count the bar. So, for example, we'll work in 4/4 since 99% of EDM and hip hop is in 4/4. Think of a basic kick drum, 4 on the floor beat. 1..2..3..4.. 1..2..3..4.. Now, the groove I'm talking about is technically called a backbeat. Emphasis on the 2 and 4. So your drums would look like this:

1...2...3...4...
K...K...K...K...
....S.......S...

That's how I normally count music in my head. MOST of the time the snares are on 2 and 4, unless it gets snazzy. BUT, what I've seen from time to time, whether it be in a youtube clip, or from downloading wav loops.. is that some producers are keeping that same groove, but maybe putting the bars in half-time and doubling the tempo. A single bar looks like this:

1...2...3...4...
K.......K.......
........S.......

But, it would sound the same as the first example. Is this making sense? So basically the steady pulsing of the kick drum from the first example woudl sound the EXACT SAME in the second example, but it would be stretched over two bars.

Why? Is there an advantage to this that I'm missing? Because I normally don't count half-time in my head when listening to tunes, but when looking at the construction behind the tunes, I see it's programmed like such.


There's a lot of flexibility in how you can count things because the time signature of a piece is determined by phrase length and emphasis within the melody as well as rhythmic elements. What's the difference between a half-time feel @ 160bpm and a regular back-beat @ 80bpm? On a grid, there isn't one. But remember, the grid in a DAW is an abstraction of musical ideas that have existed long before computers. What's the difference between 4/4, 2/2 and 2/4 time? Again, on a grid, none. But Mozart wrote a minuet in F in 2/2 time for a reason, and it sounds different from 4/4 time. In order to answer your question, you'd have to learn to play something like that minuet.

Here's a way to explore this: write a melody in 4/4 - no beat or chords, just melody. Now, try to write that in 2/2, then 2/4. Which notes will be strong and which notes weak? How can you justify that time signature?


Yeah in a way the time sig in a score just acts as a framework so that you know where to put your accents/downbeats/key/chord changes.

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 Post subject: Re: Where oh where do I put my snare?
PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 10:23 pm 

Joined: Fri May 27, 2011 8:52 am
Posts: 1574
Location: South London
you want to see some interesting time signatures changes - check piano sonata 32 by Ludwig.

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