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 Post subject: How to transfer subtle tempo changes from classical piece
PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 6:13 am 

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:03 pm
Posts: 3
Hi all

I am rendering a classical piece (Ave Verum Corpus, Mozart) with a VST plugin. To this rendering I would like to use the tempo changes from a "real" live recording which I import into Ableton as a wav file.

I have tried to use the warp markers in order to capture the tempo but never really succeed in doing so. Firstly, I have tried to let Ableton insert the warp markers automatically by indicating "Set 1.1.1 here" & warp from here and then use the quantize setting to add more markers. Before that I have made the grid in a 512 resolution so I can "quantize to current grid" but turning on the metronome afterwards to hear the result reveals that I am not even close. I think ableton has a hard time figuring out the tempo because there is no beat the clearly shines through.

Therefore, I have also tried to use a instrument to apply a beat in a midi track that conformed to the tempo in the audio file and then freeze and flatten afterwards and then set the master song tempo to follow that clips tempo - clip as a master tempo track - that result came a bit closer but not near enough the live record tempo to be useful.

Does anyone knows a workable solution - I would be thankful.

Thanks...


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 Post subject: Re: How to transfer subtle tempo changes from classical piece
PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 6:51 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:36 am
Posts: 170
Hello
You'll never really get the fluctuent tempo to follow (automatically) your Imported Wav File.
The thing Live could do easily is to force the tempo of your file to respect a steady or fluctuing premade tempo. But if I understood right you want it the other way around.

Here's what I would do, (I don't know if that helps and I hope it will make sense/ and it does implies you hopefully have the sense of rythm :) )
-1st Import Your track in arrangement view with warp mode Off.
-Tap tempo while playing on the First measure so you have an approximation of BPM for a starting point.(You'll hear your file jumping a little but it's just to hear the tempo of the first measure)
-Stop song.
-In Preferences/RECORD / Put Preroll to 1 bar.
-Hit the rec button and be ready to tap tempo along the song (hear the audio behaving nicely )IF you extend the master view at the bottom you'll see you are recording the tempo automation.
-I think it's the closer way to get it done but it requires tapping trough the whole song.
-You can then slice to midi part of it and try ajusting tempo so it matches the grid section by section.

(you could also probably boost the bass and cut the rest of frequencies then slice to midi > force to a single kick sound and then use something like B-keeper ... but I don't have the link and have nerver used it yet)

If anyone else has an idea ...


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 Post subject: Re: How to transfer subtle tempo changes from classical piece
PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 7:05 pm 

Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 12:15 pm
Posts: 3473
Yes you can, and that's pretty much awesome. Hope i remember well, someone here gave me that trick :
Take your track, warp it as you would to make it play with a steady tempo, preferably with beats mode (i could explain why, but, well, i won't). This takes time, and you wanna be as accurate as possible.
Then, make your clip be the Master clip (just under the 'warp' button). The tempo becomes automated. You can now unwarp your track.

enjoy !

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Mac OS 10.6, L8 and L9, M4L.


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 Post subject: Re: How to transfer subtle tempo changes from classical piece
PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 7:52 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:36 am
Posts: 170
Good point Chapelier.

The thing is most classical arrangement with lots of sweet strings won't excite the markers enough so you'll either way will have to remove a lot of warp markers (like all loud notes that are not on the beat) either put lot of them and sort the good ones from the "bad" that aren't on the beat... wich can be a drag to do and more painful than just tap tempo.

But hey if it works it's cool. But for "Ave Verum" I doubt.


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 Post subject: Re: How to transfer subtle tempo changes from classical piece
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 9:00 am 

Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 12:15 pm
Posts: 3473
erikomic wrote:
Good point Chapelier.

The thing is most classical arrangement with lots of sweet strings won't excite the markers enough so you'll either way will have to remove a lot of warp markers (like all loud notes that are not on the beat) either put lot of them and sort the good ones from the "bad" that aren't on the beat... wich can be a drag to do and more painful than just tap tempo.

But hey if it works it's cool. But for "Ave Verum" I doubt.


I didn't say it's not hard work.
Transients of course won't be detected by live, you got to put them manually. (Did you try the tap tempo thing ? As far as i know it's un doable, as it makes jumps after each tap.)

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Mac OS 10.6, L8 and L9, M4L.


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 Post subject: Re: How to transfer subtle tempo changes from classical piece
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 9:05 am 

Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 12:15 pm
Posts: 3473
Just tried. It works as well. It goes crazy when you just hit play, but this behavior stops when hitting record. It's not as accurate as my method but it's much faster. Depending of the precision needed, it could do the job !

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Mac OS 10.6, L8 and L9, M4L.


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 Post subject: Re: How to transfer subtle tempo changes from classical piece
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 9:32 pm 

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:03 pm
Posts: 3
First off, I am overwhelmed by all the replies so far - so many wanting to help - thanks a lot.

Like erikomic wrote "The thing is most classical arrangement with lots of sweet strings won't excite the markers enough" that was my thought also which is why I tried to create a clear drum sound that would set out the rythm. I believed that Ableton would be able to capture this - but apparantly not. If I in any way could make it work like this this is how I would do it - because it let me in control of a very accurate beat marking. Should I use a louder sound maybe for Ableton to catch the beat?


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 Post subject: Re: How to transfer subtle tempo changes from classical piece
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 9:59 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:02 am
Posts: 3499
Location: Menasha, Wisconsin
In this case I'd warp it the hard way, and follow chapelier fou's instructions.

Considering the amount of time you've spent tryin to find a quick fix. It could be done by now (not meant to sound harsh, just a kind of logic).

Here is a trick for warping pieces that fluctuate a lot (this is under the assumption that it strictly only variate a in tempo, and not actual time signature):

First, of course find a downbeat. In some music, even that can be tricky, careful that you are sure of the notes which actually play on the beat, and not necessarily ones that might lead up to it.

Use your eyes and ears. Watch the cursor, listen. Have a muted 4 on the floor beat on another channel with the mute button handy (F1-F8 on a qwerty default to track mutes for channels 1-8). Also note you should be doing this in the Session View, try global clip trigger quantization set to 1 bar, or possibly quarter notes. No less.

This next thing is the most important part.

Now that you have that all set up, first beat etc. you play the clip and watch/listen. Count the bars, see how 'off' it might be compared to click or 4/4drumbeat. When you've watched the first few bars, stop it, slide the audio around a bit (make sure there are NO other warp markers other than the one on the downbeat).

Now do that again, and watch even more carefully. The key is to count a number of bars, an even, solid, number. 8 or 16 are usually good. And as long as you can find the very point at which bar 16 begins, you can put a marker on that, setting it to align with 17.1.1. Then you continue doing this throughout the piece, do not fret too much about the material inbetween these increments of 16. The first part is simply getting through the ENTIRE track, with rough guidelines. With global quantize set properly, it is easy to trigger the clip from various parts. Compare these parts to that bass drum once in a while. Yeah, sure, it'll probably drift, but it should hit square every 16 bars.

Now, you go back to the beginning. The hardest part is basically over. You've counted out all the bars. Of you have the sheet music on hand, it should all add up.

Now, inbetween those markers, listen to the material and see how off it is. In a lot of cases, one or two well placed markers in the 'very most offset part' dragged over a bit can fix the problem.


Eventually the track will be completely warped. Hit SAVE, drink a lot, have fun with the resulting track, and follow wha chapelier fou suggested. You should be good to go.


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