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 Post subject: Start at a low sample rate then export to a higher one?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:12 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:48 pm
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It seems not only can I switch sample rates mid project but I can (as I see from export options) export at different sample rate than what my project was composed at as well. I intend to do final mixdown in Pro Tools and would like to do so at 88.2K. My song is being composed currently at 44.1K so conserve CPU and keep the buffer low. I assume the quality difference will be for those midi instruments rendered to wav. Anyways do I have the right thinking on this? Can I work in 44.1K and export at 88.2k?


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 Post subject: Re: Start at a low sample rate then export to a higher one?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 7:17 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:15 pm
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if you do, you'll be losing audio quality... just like trying to blow up a JPEG to twice the size, the data has to be filled in.


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 Post subject: Re: Start at a low sample rate then export to a higher one?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 7:38 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 6:39 pm
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From Wikipedia on sampling rate

Quote:
sampling rates higher than about 50 kHz to 60 kHz cannot supply more usable information for human listeners


Is there money to be made from the whale and elephant demographic?

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 Post subject: Re: Start at a low sample rate then export to a higher one?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 7:45 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:42 am
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That is what I do.

Regardless of whether you ordinarily can or can not hear the difference between a 44.1 kHz and a 88.2 kHz wav file (and to tell the truth I can't ), rendering at 88.2 does make a difference.

It does not add new frequencies above 20 kHz, but it does mean there is more brightness in the 10 - 20 kHz range. I find a clear and audible difference, particularly with reverbs applied to sounds with lots of high end. I find my tracks sound a lot brighter and crisper if I render at 88.2.

I think it may have to do with how Live calculates harmonics etc when rendering the reverbs.

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 Post subject: Re: Start at a low sample rate then export to a higher one?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 8:02 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:42 am
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P. S the difference is still audible when I ave converted to mp3. In other words a 320 kb mp3 converted from .a track rendered at 88.2 will sound brighter than a 320 k mp3 compressed from a track rendered at 44.1.

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 Post subject: Re: Start at a low sample rate then export to a higher one?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:25 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:48 pm
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Just so I understand how it works. Assuming I am not recording audio at 44.1K essentially what I am getting/hearing is just the final render to audio output and it doesn't matter if I change sample rate mid project or upon export to wav because the only time anything is set in stone is when I record audio (wav or aiff). Am I right?


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 Post subject: Re: Start at a low sample rate then export to a higher one?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:00 pm 

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Yip. That's how I understand it too. My in/out sample rate is set at 44.1, and so is my soundcard. When I print to audio, I just select 88.2. Haven't had problems so far. But try it and see. 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Start at a low sample rate then export to a higher one?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:09 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:15 pm
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not trying to be negative here... but i think all you're accomplishing is larger file sizes.


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 Post subject: Re: Start at a low sample rate then export to a higher one?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:16 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:42 am
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I posted a set of test results about a year ago. There really was a difference. But it could be a fluke.

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 Post subject: Re: Start at a low sample rate then export to a higher one?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 6:59 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:48 pm
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I'm thinking that a project that is all midi notes going to whatever softsynth or virtual instrument at 44.1K that it's on the D/A conversion on export that whatever sample rate becomes important.


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 Post subject: Re: Start at a low sample rate then export to a higher one?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:38 pm 

Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:23 pm
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re:dream wrote:
I posted a set of test results about a year ago. There really was a difference. But it could be a fluke.


There should be a difference, but it's not the wav being made "better" - that's just not possible. You can not add what's not there. The difference being heard is most likely enharmonic distortion, and it CAN sound better in the right circumstances, but this is pure luck, or taste.

I must stress that I'm not too sure of this either, but this is how I understand it.

I am quite happy to be proved wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Start at a low sample rate then export to a higher one?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:06 am 

Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:48 pm
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tedlogan wrote:
re:dream wrote:
I posted a set of test results about a year ago. There really was a difference. But it could be a fluke.


There should be a difference, but it's not the wav being made "better" - that's just not possible. You can not add what's not there. The difference being heard is most likely enharmonic distortion, and it CAN sound better in the right circumstances, but this is pure luck, or taste.

I must stress that I'm not too sure of this either, but this is how I understand it.

I am quite happy to be proved wrong.


But what I am saying is that...It's not like there is a recorded audio rendering at 44.1K that is then being re-recorded at 88.2K. If that were the case then yeah...It be no different than making a WAV of a MP3. Since my projects would be merely midi triggering something that makes sound I should be able to do most of my creation/mix in 44.1K then at time of export bump everything up to 88.2K for audio render. There would be only one recording, one render, one D/A conversion. That's at export to WAV.


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 Post subject: Re: Start at a low sample rate then export to a higher one?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:26 am 

Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:23 pm
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Ah of course, I understand. I don't see why not then.

But I must say, I think anything above 48khz is a waste of resources/space and placebo. Our ears simply cannot hear anything going on there. It's impossible. So why? Even if some freak of nature does, no one would notice anyway.

It can't hurt though at 88khz....or can it? Some say it introduces harmonic distortions related to pitch, which to some sounds "better" and "crisper", but it's merely frequency addition - not the original signal. It's all madness!

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 Post subject: Re: Start at a low sample rate then export to a higher one?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 3:15 am 

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Keep in mind that upsampling in Live is only so so in terms of sample rate conversions. Even Ableton admit that in the Audio Fact sheet, chapter 23 of the Live Manual. They recommend that sample rate conversions be done offline, once, before you bring the audio into Live.

Since Live 9, they do now implement the SOX conversion for down sampling only, which is actually a really good algorithm.

Converting to 88 from 44 like you're talking about probably isn't a HUGE degradation in audio, you might not even hear it done once. But in general, it is a non-neutral process, so you don't get out what you put in. It'll be up to you to decide if that trade off is worth it for you.

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 Post subject: Re: Start at a low sample rate then export to a higher one?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:27 am 

Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 7:12 pm
Posts: 271
re:dream wrote:
It does not add new frequencies above 20 kHz, but it does mean there is more brightness in the 10 - 20 kHz range. I find a clear and audible difference, particularly with reverbs applied to sounds with lots of high end. I find my tracks sound a lot brighter and crisper if I render at 88.2.

I think it may have to do with how Live calculates harmonics etc when rendering the reverbs.


Yes, it's because the processing of synths and FX produces less ALIASING at higher sample rates. So the whole point of the discussion other people make; i.e. not being able to hear beyond 20KHz is besides the point. It's not about capturing more frequency's at higher sample rates. It's about getting less ALIASING

That's why some of the synths and plugins have internal oversampling. Try this; run an instance of Guitar Rig or better yet, Fabfilter Saturn to process a sound. First, set the sample rate of the soundcard at 44.1KHz in the Ableton menu and listen. Now set it to 88.2KHz and listen. Do you hear how much better it sounds?


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