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 Post subject: Real-time rendering doesn't start...
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:11 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2014 5:07 pm
Posts: 36
Location: Ghent - Belgium
I have a Live Set, containing audio samples, but must is MIDI data (10 tracks), sent to an external synth (Motif XS).

When I start exporting, Live goes through a couple of windows, rendering the audio clips I've used, but he doesn't start the real-time rendering...
When I play the Live set from inside (pushing the play button), everything works normal.

Conclusion: Live doesn't "see" my external gear.

So, I have Ableton Live 9, Scarlett 2i2 as external sound-card and a Motif XS (my midi-clips are assigned to 1 of the 16 tracks inside the synth, and the audio comes back in the Scarlett).

Is there a way to "force" the real-time rendering or do I have to define something somewhere?

Thanks, I can't record my own composition, slightly frustrating...


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 Post subject: Re: Real-time rendering doesn't start...
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 11:16 pm 

Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:38 am
Posts: 1343
Not used external gear in Live before but there is an "External Instrument" device for this type of stuff which I assume does the managing of MIDI out and Audio in and tells Live you have an External Device. At the moment Live may not know you have an EXT device. Just a guess.

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 Post subject: Re: Real-time rendering doesn't start...
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 10:35 am 

Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:36 pm
Posts: 925
jestermgee wrote:
Not used external gear in Live before but there is an "External Instrument" device for this type of stuff which I assume does the managing of MIDI out and Audio in and tells Live you have an External Device. At the moment Live may not know you have an EXT device. Just a guess.

He's already using the External Instrument, and had a tread dedicated to that.

Dirk, try something else: Look at 14.5 Resampling.


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 Post subject: Re: Real-time rendering doesn't start...
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 6:31 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2014 5:07 pm
Posts: 36
Location: Ghent - Belgium
Both your ideas were useful: the “external instrument” is OK when you play only 1 instrument on the external synth, but I use 12 instruments or more.

So, my first idea was to add an empty clip, using the “external instrument”: it worked, Live recognized the external synth and started rendering, but for some reason there was a strange echo-effect added, even after routing the track in different ways.

Second idea was to dump the whole song on one track – as you suggested - using the master-track. That went well, but I was a little bit frustrated because I had no impact on the audio parameters, and further on you have to drag the clip to a folder (that I added in Live!). All that was OK, but Live! creates some other files and folders with it and you have to dig for the wave-file which is not very convenient!

My last approach was very basic: start Audacity (open source free tool), and defines as input the outs from my external sound card. Advantage: you can define all characteristics of the file and that is very handy! The quality is perfect! I've read a lot of comments about bad quality rendering, but Audacity captures exactly what Live is generating!

So, problem solved, and thanks for you suggestions!


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 Post subject: Re: Real-time rendering doesn't start...
PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 12:00 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2014 5:07 pm
Posts: 36
Location: Ghent - Belgium
Well, I was a little too enthusiastic about the Audacity solution... What happens is that Audacity can only define as his own input the input of the Scarlett sound-card, not the output, which means that it records only the 10 tracks, coming from the external synth, but don't do that for the 3 internal audio-tracks (with fill ins an other instruments). And there is no way to rout it to the out of the sound-card...

So, back to the suggestion of routing all tracks to an extra audio tracks (before the “master”) and “resample” the whole thing...

Annoying, because afterwards you have to drag the track to an internal map, wait before Live copied the whole thing, created some extra file, maps etc... But, after some digging you'll find the *.wav-file (names “audio + number of the track”).

It is a long work-around, but OK, the result is there...

If somebody knows how to record with an external software (like Audacity) form the output of the Scarlett card (and not the input), feel free to share it, because it is a lot of extra steps that could be avoided.


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 Post subject: Re: Real-time rendering doesn't start...
PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 12:21 pm 

Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:36 pm
Posts: 925
Dirk C wrote:
after some digging you'll find the *.wav-file (names “audio + number of the track”).

Not much digging, it's always in Samples\Recorded of your current project - easily accessible from Live's browser.
Name your Resample track conveniently and you're fine.

Dirk C wrote:
routing all tracks to an extra audio tracks (before the “master”) and “resample” the whole thing...

Read that manual section again.
You're not routing any of your playing tracks anywhere else but the Master.
ONE track's input set to Resample records the Master's OUTPUT.


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 Post subject: Re: Real-time rendering doesn't start...
PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:24 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:26 am
Posts: 383
Dirk - I read your External Instrument thread, and this one too. Starting over from scratch, here's something for you to try.


Summary
Create a group of 16 Midi tracks and one Audio track. The MIDI tracks will be used to trigger sounds in the Motif XS, and the audio track will be used to monitor the stereo input of the 2i2, which is connected to the stereo output of the XS. No External Instrument devices will be used.


Ableton Live Setup

Creating one Audio track & 16 Midi tracks to support the XS.
  • Create a new set and delete all tracks except one Audio track. No devices on the audio track.
  • Configure the Audio track as follows:
    • Name: XS Monitor
    • Audio From: Ext In, 1/2
    • Monitor: IN
    • Audio To: Master
  • Create a new Midi track and if there are any devices in it, delete them.
  • Configure the Midi track as follows:
    • Name: XS 1
    • Midi From: All Ins, All Channels
    • Monitor: Auto
    • Midi To: Your Midi Interface & Port connect to the XS, Channel 1
  • Duplicate the Midi track 15 times, rename each new track, and increment the Midi channel by one.

Creating the Group
  • Select all of the tracks (1 Audio, 16 Midi)
  • Group all of the tracks together: Cmd/Ctrl + G
  • Group Track Name: XS Grp
  • Audio To: Master

For future use, save the Group by dragging the group track to your User Library in Live's browser.


Workflows

Play XS Instr and Record Midi into Live
  • On 2i2, switch Direct Monitor off.
  • In XS, turn Local off.
  • In XS, assign an intrument to Midi Ch 1.
  • In Live, record enable Midi track "XS 1", which is assigned to Midi Ch 1.
  • Midi will come out of the XS, be received by Live on all Midi Ports/Channels, and then routed back to the XS on Midi Ch 1.
  • If you want to stack XS instruments, you should be able to record enable multiple XS Midi tracks in Live.
  • Hit Record in Live's transport to record the Midi data from the XS into a clip.
  • If you've already recorded some clips, they should play their XS instruments while you record the Midi for another XS instrument.
  • All audio from the XS will be monitored thru Live. So on the "XS Monitor" audio track, make sure Monitor is set to IN, and that the track in NOT record enabled.

Record Audio Played by XS Midi Tracks into Live
  • On 2i2, switch Direct Monitor off.
  • In Live, mute all XS Midi tracks that should not be recorded.
  • In Live, record enable the "XS Monitor" audio track.
  • Hit Record in Live's transport to record the audio coming from the XS.
  • When you're done recording:
    • Move the audio clip to a new audio track outside the XS Group.
    • Mute the XS Midi track you just recorded, or deactivate the clip.
    • Record disable the "XS Monitor" audio track.
    • Edit the new audio clip as needed.
  • Repeate to create audio clips for other XS Midi tracks.

Real-Time Mixdown Using Resampling

If you want to mix everything down (including the audio from from the XS) to a stereo file, do the following:
  • Create a new audio track that's NOT in the XS Group.
  • Set the Audio From of the new track to Resampling, Mute it, and record enable it.
  • Make sure no other tracks are record enabled.
  • Make sure the "XS Monitor" track has its Monitor section set to IN.
  • Hit Record in Live's transport.
  • When you're done recording, unmute and solo the audio track you just recorded so you can listen to the recording without hearing anything else.

Hopefully all of this will help you get to where you want to go.


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 Post subject: Re: Real-time rendering doesn't start...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:52 am 

Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:36 pm
Posts: 925
After just a quick glance sideways this looks like some excellent writeup!


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 Post subject: Re: Real-time rendering doesn't start...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 6:20 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2014 5:07 pm
Posts: 36
Location: Ghent - Belgium
chrk wrote:
You're not routing any of your playing tracks anywhere else but the Master.
ONE track's input set to Resample records the Master's OUTPUT.


Yes, there is a lot to read in that manual... But thanks for the tip!


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 Post subject: Re: Real-time rendering doesn't start...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 6:35 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2014 5:07 pm
Posts: 36
Location: Ghent - Belgium
outsidesys wrote:
Hopefully all of this will help you get to where you want to go.


Wow! That was a detailed explanation! Thanks for taking the time to write it out.

The idea of making a group is handy! Your explanation makes me believe that you know all about it!

In the meantime I played around a little bit more and here are some extra remarks that could help fellow musicians who have the same set-up:

> Yes, you can assign an instrument at XS level, and store the song (also on XS). You also can assign the instrument on Ableton level in the characteristics of the clip and store it with the Live Set. In reality I use the mixer on XS to adjust volume and panning, so why not the instrument. It is also possible to store the XS Song on a USB (so also on your PC), so you can put it together with you Live Set in your set folder.
> You suggest to "record" each midi-track in an audio track. I know myself: I will play a very long time with note lengths etc. so I like the midi piano roll. So, who likes that same way of composing; can record all midi-file as one at the end of the production.
> When all tracks end up to be audio, you can easily use the export functionality from Live without doing the resampling (I think, but never tried yet).

But, thanks again for your in-depth explanation, it was very useful!!


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