44KHz or 48KHz? (mostly for video playback)

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
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turnstylenyc
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44KHz or 48KHz? (mostly for video playback)

Post by turnstylenyc » Mon May 13, 2013 2:33 pm

Hi all,

I'm working out my procedure to record some home music projects.

I'll be shooting MP4 or MTS/AVCHD on my camera, and simultaneously recording audio in Live.

I'll then use a video editor (Sony Movie Studio) to sync the audio from Live to the video from the camera -- and then I expect to render 1080p MP4 files, either to keep or upload to YouTube.

My question: should I make sure to record the audio in Live at 48KHz? I gather the audio in MP4 video files is 48KHz.

(Seems weird that CD audio was standard at 44KHz, and then they decided to use 48KHz for video!)

For those of you who record audio to be used *both* in CDs *and* videos, are you then recording at 96KHz just to improve the downsampling to either KHz?

Thanks in advance for any tips/suggestions!

jlgrimes
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Re: 44KHz or 48KHz? (mostly for video playback)

Post by jlgrimes » Mon May 13, 2013 2:37 pm

I hear that 48khz is the standard for video (or 96khz), so it might be better to do your projects at that sample rate.

turnstylenyc
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Re: 44KHz or 48KHz? (mostly for video playback)

Post by turnstylenyc » Mon May 13, 2013 4:00 pm

If you want to support both CD and video output, would that be a reason to use 96KHz? Or is it fine to downsample from 48KHz to 44KHz.

I assume it's not ideal to upsample from 44KHz to 48KHz, is that correct? So, for example, if you use CD audio within a video, it has to be upsampled?

Does anybody happen to know why they changed the standard of 44KHz to 48KHz for video?

jlgrimes
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Re: 44KHz or 48KHz? (mostly for video playback)

Post by jlgrimes » Tue May 14, 2013 12:21 am

turnstylenyc wrote:If you want to support both CD and video output, would that be a reason to use 96KHz? Or is it fine to downsample from 48KHz to 44KHz.

I assume it's not ideal to upsample from 44KHz to 48KHz, is that correct? So, for example, if you use CD audio within a video, it has to be upsampled?

Does anybody happen to know why they changed the standard of 44KHz to 48KHz for video?
I think the main reason video use 48 is because it is more in line with the video frame rate.

I don't think it is a super big issue staying at 44 though. Most of my videos use 44.1 kHz. But I'm not doing nothing professionally.

With the right src you can go from 48 to 44 with no issues but you would need a program that does this like sound forge or R8 brain.

Tone Deft
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Re: 44KHz or 48KHz? (mostly for video playback)

Post by Tone Deft » Tue May 14, 2013 12:58 am

jlgrimes wrote:I think the main reason video use 48 is because it is more in line with the video frame rate.
they're not even remotely close to or related to each other.

48kHz scales to 32k, 96k and 192k more easily. 44.1k is mostly related to CD and if you're not going to CD as your main final product why use a wonky sample rate?
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florian_bl
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Re: 44KHz or 48KHz? (mostly for video playback)

Post by florian_bl » Wed May 15, 2013 12:34 am

44.1 kHz was chosen for digital audio, because you need a sampling rate twice the frequency of the highest frequency that you want to record. So 20 kHz -> 40 kHz. The additional 4.1 kHz are there because at the end of a DA converter there has to be a highcut filter to remove the artefacts and no analog filter is precise enough to cut above a frequency but not affect the frequencies below a bit. There is always a slight roll off of high end below the filter frequency, so it had to be set higher than the 40 kHz. 44.1 seemed to be right for this. No idea about the precise mathematics for this though.

And the 48 kHz? That is a copy protection. When DAT was around, the music industry (mainly Sony) was afraid that people could now record their CDs to the digital tape without any loss in quality and therefore CD sales would go down. A cheap cable between two machines would be enough for the perfect copy. So they built the DAT with a different sample rate than their CD players so recording had to go through the analog converters. Quality loss would prevent the infinite process of a copy from a copy from a copy...

The public broadcasting corporations had enough money to buy DAT recorders for their studios very early. Often as the first digital piece of equipment in there. If you run more than one ad/da converter in a studio, they have to be in sync and have to use the same sampling rate. You also have to define which one is the master. DAT recorders where there already when the broadcasting studios bought more digital equipment, so they hooked up their new stuff as slave to the DAT. Mainly because of this, broadcasting studios in the EBU were all running on 48 kHz now, whereas the music studios stayed with the CD standard of 44.1 kHz. The film industry as suppliers of content chose the broadcasting standard of 48 kHz too.

It is a simplified story, but in the end a copy protection system to slow down technological progress and secure maximum profit for a private company has created trouble for everybody in audio for decades. Still quality is lost when you have to change formats, which happens all the time at public radios, at least in Europe. They run their systems according to broadcasting standard but get delivered all their content produced in music standard.

mrobare
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Re: 44KHz or 48KHz? (mostly for video playback)

Post by mrobare » Wed May 15, 2013 1:22 am

In digital audio the most common sampling rates are 44.1 kHz, 48 kHz, 88.2 kHz, 96 kHz and 192 kHz.[5] Lower sampling rates have the benefit of smaller data size and easier storage and transport. Because of the Nyquist-Shannon theorem, sampling rates higher than about 50 kHz to 60 kHz cannot supply more usable information for human listeners. Early professional audio equipment manufacturers chose sampling rates in the region of 50 kHz for this reason. 88.2 kHz and 96 kHz are often used in modern professional audio equipment, along with 44.1 kHz and 48 kHz. Higher rates such as 192 kHz are prone to ultrasonic artifacts causing audible intermodulation distortion, and inaccurate sampling caused by too much speed.[6] The Audio Engineering Society recommends 48 kHz sample rate for most applications but gives recognition to 44.1 kHz for Compact Disc and other consumer uses, 32 kHz for transmission-related application and 96 kHz for higher bandwidth or relaxed anti-aliasing filtering

from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sample_rate

explains it pretty good
48k is the way to go

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dazzer
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Re: 44KHz or 48KHz? (mostly for video playback)

Post by dazzer » Wed May 15, 2013 1:29 am

All interesting, but when you work at 48K you may realise that most/all of your samples are 44.1

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=193617

Blendton
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Re: 44KHz or 48KHz? (mostly for video playback)

Post by Blendton » Wed May 15, 2013 3:12 am

dazzer wrote:All interesting, but when you work at 48K you may realise that most/all of your samples are 44.1

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=193617
Yeah right, everyone's right, and interesting because not without mandatory concessions then an issue for real but without and never will have a real full solution for it. I mean, for someone working with at the top some computer, controllers & stuff at-hands, and in the middle, some tech-based impossible to solve issue linked to the binary notation and 2x/4x multiplier/divider mandatory in threading or RAM access/bandwidth ---> in brief a lot of things chained to what is the only available solution, which isn't one but some turn-around :

As well mentionned above 44.1 and 48 are both industry standards, but in two fields of art amazingly co-deopendant from each-other on a 50/50 ratio basis.

BUT unless Ableton manage and they will when time will come (they didn't exist when the issue was being a huge mess so what you wait for is a two-separated into one piece of "Ableton Live X.Y.Z" release (surely a major so a X one indeed), it won't be for next year so relax.

Working in the specialy of music and video related tasks, like voice to video or post-producing in general I should say : the only exit door to be trustfull and do things right for sure requires power, money and space for racks & all the stuff.

Believe it or not, but even if you manage to put hands-on a. average well known mastering-grade equipments and software like a Pro-Tools HDX on a two Xeon MaxPro like the last one, 2 x 6 cores in a parralel thought based way to link t hem + RAM sharing accessing and bandwitdh being channel based double or tripled >>> well, it does the job you talk about.

In fact no it doesn't but human ear and eyes aren't perfect enough to sense it, BTW :

In business, stayng on Sony's way to do it in fact : say others that THIS has to be an almighty industries standards for THAT STUFF.

Just read and learn about how many casses like this occured : stupid looking like choices on a tech view, even shocking demands or exigences from some ruler in the vendors private money playing brands.

Well, BTW, wow it's fucking late lol (4:44AM @ GMT+2, in France summer-GMT+1 with added bi-annual +1 for summer-period (sping-summer in fact).

So... Try to always find turn-arounds, I won't discuss about using Live in some video linked stuff, I'm not competent zero skill level so nice to discuss and talk about something at last about music and how it works thred in this forum :D

And just because it's stronger than me, have to say (because of the Sony anecdote and reminder on that 48k weird case linked to business king of the hill want to be stories :

People dreamed about it, Sony did it I'm french but it's more or less what a famous Sony catchphrase-selling stone was in english, sorry to refuse the wiki or google cheat, I prefer writing "Vous en reviez ? Sony l'a fait !" by my own means, showing I don't know that, BTW I love learning things ut keep some stuff in a mystery / never want to know in spite or being able to know right know. ;)

I hate them, far less than i.e. Nintendo who do absolutly stupid and do billions selling 30$ costing consoles at 100/200USD with fucking bad proprietary for every feature, hard/soft being both closed and internally made, thinking that just because people will remember the 1st Wii Sports experience with some beer buddies and ideally the following good party that saturday where you put hands on that girls ass, BTW what's that ass's name shit, I'm losing memory lol" >>> cool. Then what ?

Are you involved professionaly (or have been in the past / wanna become in near future) into working with both audio and video or in a self based decison for entertaining/talented/liking the thing purpose >>> "amateur" the french word is for no-pros <<<

If you master this delicate complex technoly based mixinf of two art forms I can't any other than suggest you to reach somùe Pro-Tools and Nuendo based systems, Ableton for now is music for, with capabilities with video involving tasks but it's very far from the begining of some pro grade software for that topic, I allow myself to say...

Well, have a good day and look at more valuable since aimed at your specifics.

Kind regards.
Antoine, aka Blendton.

OS : Windows 8 Professional with Media Center - x64
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dazzer
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Re: 44KHz or 48KHz? (mostly for video playback)

Post by dazzer » Wed May 15, 2013 8:22 am

^ That's easy for you to say...

Blendton
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Re: 44KHz or 48KHz? (mostly for video playback)

Post by Blendton » Wed May 15, 2013 8:52 am

dazzer wrote:^ That's easy for you to say...
Of course it is "by design" dude.

That's why despite being doing something when I quick-checked Gmail and read all previous writings, I tried to do as you say "the easy stuff", being "I say You should do"

...

but with a long and references to some facts I used to have to know for some purposes long ago, even reaching without asking a 310 grade for Pro-Tools which I declined for schedule conflicts... I remember of course almost everything but if trying to tell you all about my life it would be an off-topic of the decade good challenger that never will be posted post lol ...

Easy to say so tried with my "french factory default settings" to say hard stuff, and do some structured but acceptable way to easily say with difficulties, but nowledge though, the problem being that so many variables in hard/soft/middleware that I could be helpful only if I was a neighboor or something like, in order to make easy what's so easy said but hard to fulllysolve except for budgets above some dozens of thousands of bucks (yeah, it's a lot of ... "of" word lol / and bucks yes I was aboutb to forget :P)

But yeh firstly AAbleton's joob is not video since their birth until now, as for now they just do what I see as expriments but without releasing crashing stuff because you have to do A/V tasks with Live or Suite....

So Ableton's safety lock : limited to amateur or curiousity triggered works and products... That said, just ONE friend on Ableton uses it with vids and never told me any story about bad things, but he's far less worried about the audio rate part of the tasks bundled in this kind of specific job.

BTW I did my feeling written live post for the day and since I won't be able to help anymore, I just stay tuned. Will only post if adressed by name or asked for something or a tech detail or budget linked questions, etc.

Cheers dudes. :wink:
Antoine, aka Blendton.

OS : Windows 8 Professional with Media Center - x64
Ableton Live 9 Suite (64-bit) & Ableton Suite 8 + Max for Live (32-bit)
Toshiba Qosmio F750 + lenticular glasses-free 3D
i7 2670QM 2,20GHz - 2x4GB DDR3-1333 - 5400rpm HDD

turnstylenyc
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Re: 44KHz or 48KHz? (mostly for video playback)

Post by turnstylenyc » Wed May 15, 2013 11:01 am

florian_bl wrote:[snip]

And the 48 kHz? That is a copy protection.

[snip]
Thank you, that was brilliant info -- when I was thinking "this is annoying" it never occurred to me that it was annoying *by design*! To continue the conversation...

1) It seems most here prefer 48KHz -- but Live defaults to 44KHz -- is there a particular reason for that? Are the clips provided with Live 44KHz or 48KHz (or a mix)?

2) Is 48KHz fine for files such as MP3 or AAC, or is 44KHz still better for those, in the way 44KHz is appropriate for CDs?

Thanks, this has been very interesting!

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