Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Post Reply
Angstrom
Posts: 14672
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 2:22 pm
Contact:

Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by Angstrom » Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:14 am

ThomasHelzle wrote:In the beta we were told that "nobody is using tagging anyway".

Check out the new OSX: http://www.apple.com/osx/preview/
The most annoying thing about the "nobody is using tagging anyway" stance is ... Well, please tell me what "ambient and evolving" is, what is "pads" what is "synth rhythmic"? These are tags! (descriptive attributes/properties)
The problem is : they are very badly implemented tags, because they are hierarchic for no reason, meaning we can describe a preset as "synth rhythmic" but never combine "synth" and "rhythmic" with "lead" ourselves, or combine "synth" "pad" "atmospheric" "evolving" , or even have "orchestral" "ambient" "evolving".

The whole point of "tagging" assets with descriptive attributes is that attributes arent mutually exclusive and this helps users find appropriate content through attribution ("I'm looking for something paddy, perhaps orchestral or maybe the right sort of synthetic, airy, dissonant" ) somehow Ableton missed that and tried to make tags approximate the OS file tree. When implemented this way a user must wade through each hierarchic category one by one, blindly trying stuff.

Awful.

So, we DO have tags, they are just implemented in the very worst possible way.

ThomasHelzle
Posts: 84
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2007 4:48 pm
Contact:

Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by ThomasHelzle » Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:30 am

Hehehehe - yeah, I think I agreed with you about basically everything you ever wrote in the beta ;-)

The best thing about Ableton Live 9 is, that it made it so easy to decide NOT to update ;-)
The beta made it so brutally clear how stuck Ableton really is.

Frightening in a way.
Thankfully I don't depend on it.

Cheers,

Tom

TYLRbass
Posts: 277
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:51 pm

Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by TYLRbass » Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:33 pm

ThomasHelzle wrote: .... :lol: :roll: :cry: :evil: :mrgreen:
This pretty much sums up my emotions about Live9
Image

H20nly
Posts: 15838
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:15 pm
Location: The Wild West

Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by H20nly » Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:30 pm

ThomasHelzle wrote:Hehehehe - yeah, I think I agreed with you about basically everything you ever wrote in the beta ;-)
he's a hard one to disagree with... always making all that damn "sense" and whatnot. he should be flogged for causing the powers that be to look like a bunch of schmucks.

ThomasHelzle
Posts: 84
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2007 4:48 pm
Contact:

Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by ThomasHelzle » Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:43 pm

Horrible really, I agree. ;-)

Making sense should be forbidden anyway.
I guess Angstrom never saw the movie on the matter from the Talking Heads, otherwise he would know how to behave...

What has the world come to :lol:

Cheers,

Tom

oddstep
Posts: 1732
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:47 pm
Location: Plymouth the great

Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by oddstep » Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:57 pm

+1 the live 9 browser/push synergy just underlines Ableton's focus on having a flagship controller for each version and the role of partner content within Live. The whole separation between user content and paid content only makes sense as marketing. It doesn't work for me as an artist or performer. On the other hand the changes to the eq and compressors plus session recording are pretty great. I can't imagine what would induce me to upgrade again though.

erikomic
Posts: 190
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:36 am

Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by erikomic » Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:34 pm

bringing automation from arrangement into session clips is worth upgrading even with a clumsy browser.

Steve Glen
Posts: 362
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:17 am
Location: Edmonton Alberta

Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by Steve Glen » Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:32 am

why can I not create a project in the browser?

knotkranky
Posts: 4336
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 7:08 pm
Location: la

Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by knotkranky » Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:20 am

The crappy browser is a marketing browser imo. And as mentioned, to drive third party development and to show those developers that abes are willing to sacrifice individuality to drive interest. And it will work. I bought 3 packs today, but i'm shaking my head too. It's a low hanging fruit mentality. FFS, my personal sounds are getting harder to use in live, wtf. It is most definitely a $ucce$$ for them and developer$. Hopefully they're just priming the pump. Doubt it tho. They just don't care what creative artists need. Don't they use their own fucking software? No, they don't.

The browser is sooo pathetically powerless for an upgrade and shamefully biased away from individual creativity.

GarageLive9

re:dream
Posts: 4554
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:42 am
Location: Hoerikwaggo's sunset side...
Contact:

Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by re:dream » Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:01 am

But is that true?

Given that, if you do your user places right, all your own patches / presets will show up in their categories; and that with a little bit of trouble you can basically ignore categories altogether it does not seem to be a very effective marketing tool at all...

Nokatus
Posts: 1064
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 7:06 am

Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by Nokatus » Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:01 pm

Well, I brought up these concerns in the user survey, too. The core areas needing improvement in Live, in my opinion of course, were left completely untouched or given cosmetic upgrades (PDC, genuinely more powerful MIDI/audio editing instead of "now you can mirror flip stuff this way, too" gimmicks, etc.) -- and at least one area that was suddenly dramatically changed turned up a lot worse. Adding to that, for many live gigging professionals (like Fanu, who has aired his discontent here, too) Live 9 still seems to be, months after its launch, the worst version for live performance yet.

I've used Live since version 4, upgrading to 5, 6, 7 and 8. I've defended Live enthusiastically in the past for things that haven't been true showstoppers, as the benefits have far outweighed the negatives. And the brilliant things in Live 8 are still as brilliant as ever. Version 8.4 is rock solid. Great 64 bit environment, I love so much about it really.

The thing is, again from my personal viewpoint, Live 9 feels like it's glaringly focusing on the wrong things. I expected a much more serious, to the point improvement on Live 8. I can't help but feeling like I don't actually trust Ableton's direction anymore, and I really don't want to risk it, committing the bulk of my work to Live like I used to, if after a few years Live 10 ends up being another step in the same direction. I would basically be tied to a host from 2009 in the year 2016, with a lot of unneeded crap on top, and many core features literally straight out of 2005-2006, editing functions figuratively from the 90s.

I've been getting familiar with Studio One, the direction their team is taking it, and the workflow it promotes. Currently doing first real world projects for a client with it. Feels very good, a breath of fresh air. Won't replace Live completely for me, duh, as I'm very fond of using Live's racks for sound design, for example. Still, honestly, for most things I won't be starting Live for the time being. When teaching general principles of the craft, I won't be using Live as an example host when not actually necessary. Checking out Reaper much more for that kind of stuff, too. Future proofing my options, so to speak, and not wanting to get other people excited on a product which would cost them much more while still potentially turning out to be going to hell.

It goes without saying I will be running back at version 10 and singing its praises if it gets things right :D. Live 9 doesn't.

Synthbuilder
Posts: 496
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:42 am
Location: Cumbria, UK
Contact:

Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by Synthbuilder » Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:36 pm

I've been trying out Studio One too. I'm not sure I'm ready to switch since old habits die hard.

But Live 9, at least on my system, is playing silly buggers with midi out. Live 8 was fine, for the most part, but Live 9 seems to randomly not bother sending out 'note off' or 'all notes off' when you stop the sequencer. So your external synths suffer from note hangs. Support have been contacted but it's yet another thing to annoy me.

Oh yeah, what's with the new desktop icon. A blue square with the word Live written inside. I liked the old one much better.

The splash screen is terrible as well.

:evil:

knotkranky
Posts: 4336
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 7:08 pm
Location: la

Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by knotkranky » Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:04 pm

The Finn wrote:But is that true?

Given that, if you do your user places right, all your own patches / presets will show up in their categories; and that with a little bit of trouble you can basically ignore categories altogether it does not seem to be a very effective marketing tool at all...
Not as a marketing tool to promote from inside live. I could have been clearer. It's a one ended marketing browser "omission" (tool) for commerce and licensing.

Creative artists get it in the ass and developers get enticing bait to give it a go. Abes want lots of third party licenses. Like an App Store.

The browser was not "improved" for us. It was hobbled to sell Packs.

fimpson
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:44 am

Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by fimpson » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:54 pm

ikeaboy wrote:My main gripe with 9 is how you can't go anyway on the computer with the browser to grab a file without adding and indexing the appropriate folder first. I wouldn't give it all up and go back to 8 though.
This is why everyone is complaining about the browser! - seems like most of you guys save samples all over the place in your computers instead of organising in a dedicated samples folder.

I actually really like the browser. Was confused at first but the show all option works so well for the way I've organised my sample library.

Angstrom
Posts: 14672
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 2:22 pm
Contact:

Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by Angstrom » Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:08 pm

fimpson wrote:
ikeaboy wrote:My main gripe with 9 is how you can't go anyway on the computer with the browser to grab a file without adding and indexing the appropriate folder first. I wouldn't give it all up and go back to 8 though.
This is why everyone is complaining about the browser! - seems like most of you guys save samples all over the place in your computers instead of organising in a dedicated samples folder.

I actually really like the browser. Was confused at first but the show all option works so well for the way I've organised my sample library.
No, my samples are categorised all in a folder called audio, in nested titled sub folders such as "effects/atmospheric", "effects/bbc/horror" , "drums/electronic/hits/kicks/angstrom"

The problem is NOT our lack of organisation, it's that we have good organisation and Live won't respect it, or to allow us to build one of our own.
Using folder names as a taxonomy is not great, but it's all we had, and now our established folder structure doesn't show in the main browser (unless you edit the XML). We are asked to conform to Ableton's weird folder based taxonomy instead, this Ableton system is an OS derived tag system stored in a database - but with none of the dynamic taxonomic grouping and filtration benefits of a database, and none of the rugged file handling of the raw OS file tree.

Remarkable.

Post Reply